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Old 08-11-2012, 02:02 PM   #526
Hands of Iron
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
I probably undersell Jordan because I prefer the way Bird played, I acknowledge that. Honestly, though, I don't think they're in the same plane in terms of off-the-ball ability. Bird's IQ was the highest I've ever seen on the basketball court - even higher than Magic IMO - and one of the smartest sportsmen I've ever seen. Everything with him had a mental facet - whether it was his determination or his intelligence. If he had a better athletic build I don't think there'd be much of a discussion for GOAT. Then again, it may be because he had to use his mental faculties more because he was physically not as great as the others.

Without reservation, I'd say Bird was capable of scoring a lot more than he ended up doing (he is already an elite scorer IMO). If he wanted to concentrate on scoring the way Jordan tended to do then he'd be averaging more. Even towards the end of his career where he was a cripple or his important teammates were injured, he'd regularly have high scoring games. I'd give Jordan the edge because he was better at getting to the rim but when it's that close, honestly, it's more about who is feeling better that night.

In terms of playmaking, I just don't put Jordan on that level. I put Bird up there with the best. If Magic is the benchmark, then I don't see Bird as far off, if at all. For me, Jordan's just a very good playmaker - not a great one. That goes to explain my recent rant/to-and-fro with some posters.

I think it is a tremendous job to do both equally well - which is why I fawn over Bird. It's damn-near-impossible to be that good at scoring and that good at playmaking. Not just having the requisite skills to score and pass, but the mentality to do so. Often, you see specialists and even those who are well-rounded aren't well-rounded like Bird was. He could score with the best and pass with the best...he could also rebound with the best too. It's just absurd how good he was.

Seriously.

It's seemingly always a struggle to determine which he excelled more at in any given game. Which facet of his game was better HERE or HERE?
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Old 08-11-2012, 06:08 PM   #527
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
I think youre overrating Birds off the ball scoring ability in this sense. 90% (estimate) of Birds scoring came off the fastbreak, or him scoring off PICKS and SCREENS. Bird used his team just like Jordan used his to make their scoring easier.

I remember there was a topic created iiin which the question was asked who would win a game of 1 on 1 between Scottie Pippen and Larry Bird. I stated Pippen because hes a better 1 on 1 scorer and man defender. Bird fans argues, but could only show one fluke clip of Larry Bird taking his man off the dribble. Every clip of Birds scoring the ball came as a result of his team getting him open.

If anything I am underselling it I feel, since I hardly mention it. Bird got by with a catch, feint and shoot. His fundamentals were so great that he didn't need much else which helped him without the ball immensely, especially during the latter part to his career. He really didn't need to drive with the ball much at all in that sense. He hung loose and picked his plays intelligently, didn't force his points at all. However you rate Jordan, I don't think you'd say he had that kind of game.

As for your Pippen 1v1 scenario; I think Pippen is a great man-defender but as I said elsewhere that facet of the game is overrated. I think the attacker is generally favourite in the majority of situations and only in a team situation are volume scorers somewhat withheld. Bird is an elite scorer and he'd still score on someone even like Pippen. I probably lean towards Pippen more than others may because I think he was a fantastic all-round player in terms of offense and had an unbelievable defensive game. Therefore, I rate him higher than most; but I'd still put my money on Larry 8/10.
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Old 08-11-2012, 07:48 PM   #528
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
If anything I am underselling it I feel, since I hardly mention it.
Underselling it? Your whole argument is centered around it. And birds penchant to play the passing lanes.


Bird got by with a catch, feint and shoot. His fundamentals were so great that he didn't need much else which helped him without the ball immensely, especially during the latter part to his career.
Bird couldnt, I repeat, could not, score off the dribble on a consistant basis.

He really didn't need to drive with the ball much at all in that sense.
Its not an argument because he couldnt.


He hung loose and picked his plays intelligently, didn't force his points at all. However you rate Jordan, I don't think you'd say he had that kind of game.
That doesnt make one better than the other.


As for your Pippen 1v1 scenario; I think Pippen is a great man-defender but as I said elsewhere that facet of the game is overrated. I think the attacker is generally favourite in the majority of situations and only in a team situation are volume scorers somewhat withheld. Bird is an elite scorer and he'd still score on someone even like Pippen. I probably lean towards Pippen more than others may because I think he was a fantastic all-round player in terms of offense and had an unbelievable defensive game. Therefore, I rate him higher than most; but I'd still put my money on Larry 8/10.
Dude its one on one. Not a game situation. That was the question. That means Bird cant use picks and screens to get open. And he aint getting open on Pippen enough to beat him in a game of one on one. Not to mention he must also be able to stay in front of Pippen.


Your problem is you feel any facet of basketball that Bird has over Jordan must be considered a weakness for Jordan. All the aspects that made Bird great Jordan had too. But perhaps not at Birds level. The difference is Jordans strengths such as scoring off the dribble and man defense were definate weaknesses for Bird.
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Old 08-11-2012, 10:58 PM   #529
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Dude its one on one. Not a game situation. That was the question. That means Bird cant use picks and screens to get open. And he aint getting open on Pippen enough to beat him in a game of one on one. Not to mention he must also be able to stay in front of Pippen.


Your problem is you feel any facet of basketball that Bird has over Jordan must be considered a weakness for Jordan. All the aspects that made Bird great Jordan had too. But perhaps not at Birds level. The difference is Jordans strengths such as scoring off the dribble and man defense were definate weaknesses for Bird.

Exactly.

Jordan could do things Bird could do maybe not as good as Bird but still at a high level. On the other hand, Bird doesn't have Jordan's athleticism that is why he couldn't create easy shots like Jordan without using screens and cuts. And defense, Bird is a great defender but really not on Jordan's level.
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Old 08-12-2012, 03:19 AM   #530
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by TheMan
This thread proves that MJ fans aren't into tearing a GOAT player to prop up their favorite player, that tactic is unfortunatly a favorite by the younger fans of current great players (I won't name them but take a wild guess). I think that that's what they think they need to do to prop up their favorites over past legends

If someone's a fan of a player, then that player's greatness should speak for itself. When people resort to the tactic of tearing down another player instead of simply talking about the greatness of their own chosen player, it's a sign of insecurity.
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Old 08-12-2012, 03:42 AM   #531
Hands of Iron
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by ThaRegul8r
If someone's a fan of a player, then that player's greatness should speak for itself. When people resort to the tactic of tearing down another player instead of simply talking about the greatness of their own chosen player, it's a sign of insecurity.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands of Iron
Craziness.

No player in history makes me insecure about Bird's place in the game, and we all have our favorites.


So how's it gone with jlauber?
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Old 05-15-2014, 03:22 AM   #532
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

No, Kareem is
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Old 05-15-2014, 06:46 AM   #533
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Bill Russell is the undisputed GOAT.
If you judge players relative to their competition nobody even comes relatively close to him
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Old 05-15-2014, 06:51 AM   #534
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by SexSymbol
Bill Russell is the undisputed GOAT.
If you judge players relative to their competition nobody even comes relatively close to him

I think the overwhelming majority would say Jordan. I do agree that Russell should be in the top 3. Then we have the Larry's, Magics and Kareems. And who knows where Lebron will end up when he's done.

In a month's time, we could be looking at a 29 year old with 4 mvps and 3 finals mvps. It's insane.
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Old 05-15-2014, 09:40 AM   #535
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Many can be argued over MJ but the Jordan mythologists will lead you to believe otherwise
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Old 05-15-2014, 10:37 AM   #536
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by atljonesbro
Many can be argued over MJ but the Jordan mythologists will lead you to believe otherwise

Ok
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:28 AM   #537
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Can someone explain to me, as I'm still new to basketball, why one of the reasons that MJ is GOAT because has never lost a final, whereas Lebron has 4 times, is valid?

I understand Lebron has only 3 rings but hypothetically speaking if he was to win 3 more rings with a career finals stat of 6/10 then the argument should invalid. Reaching 10 finals should hold higher value regardless of how many you've lost. MJ might not have lost in a final but he lost in rounds previous to it so whats the difference?
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Old 09-28-2017, 12:07 PM   #538
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderObsessed
Can someone explain to me, as I'm still new to basketball, why one of the reasons that MJ is GOAT because has never lost a final, whereas Lebron has 4 times, is valid?

I understand Lebron has only 3 rings but hypothetically speaking if he was to win 3 more rings with a career finals stat of 6/10 then the argument should invalid. Reaching 10 finals should hold higher value regardless of how many you've lost. MJ might not have lost in a final but he lost in rounds previous to it so whats the difference?

because that isn't what makes mj goat. mj is goat because when measured fully, he has the strongest case overall, and not to mention the least amount of weaknesses. fundamentals, grace, flash - he had it all.
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Old 09-28-2017, 12:13 PM   #539
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderObsessed
Can someone explain to me, as I'm still new to basketball, why one of the reasons that MJ is GOAT because has never lost a final, whereas Lebron has 4 times, is valid?

I understand Lebron has only 3 rings but hypothetically speaking if he was to win 3 more rings with a career finals stat of 6/10 then the argument should invalid. Reaching 10 finals should hold higher value regardless of how many you've lost. MJ might not have lost in a final but he lost in rounds previous to it so whats the difference?


Bron lost 5 times in the Finals.

Jerry West lost 8 of 9 Finals. You must have him very high.
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Old 09-28-2017, 12:37 PM   #540
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

MJ was my unanimous GOAT but after the charlotte GM fiasco*1 and other questionable decision-making*2,3,4 I now have him borderline top-3 GOAT. Kareem and Russell will close in fast at this rate if MJ keeps destroying his legacy one draft pick and one outfit at a time.

Sources:
1. Charlotte GM fiasco. Worst talent evaluator in league history.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...re-as-an-owner

2. Very questionable decision-making. Crackhead level personal attire decision-making




3.



4.
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