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Old 09-28-2017, 02:12 PM   #541
Vman23
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

MJ is simply the greatest combination of stats + accolades that any player has to offer and the most popular/famous player of all time.

It's going to be tough for anyone to ever take him off that throne.

You have to win 6-7 championships, and you have to do it as the clear #1 guy in every title run. You have to win 3-5 regular MVP's, you have to match his accolades and then be on his level statistically.

It's honestly hard to see it happening.
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Old 09-28-2017, 02:22 PM   #542
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vman23
MJ is simply the greatest combination of stats + accolades that any player has to offer and the most popular/famous player of all time.

It's going to be tough for anyone to ever take him off that throne.

Yep, so far we have:

Russell: not enough offense
Wilt: Losing finals record
Kareem: Magic for five of those championships
Magic: Not enough defense, had Kareem
Lebron: Same as Wilt
Duncan: Not dominant enough
Shaq: Had Kobe & prime Wade
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:12 PM   #543
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Jordan will remain the GOAT.
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:15 PM   #544
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marchesk
Yep, so far we have:

Russell: not enough offense
Wilt: Losing finals record
Kareem: Magic for five of those championships
Magic: Not enough defense, had Kareem
Lebron: Same as Wilt
Duncan: Not dominant enough
Shaq: Had Kobe & prime Wade
It's moreso lack of titles than Finals losses, unless you think they'd have a better argument with 4-5 first round exits instead
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:38 PM   #545
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by SouBeachTalents
It's moreso lack of titles than Finals losses, unless you think they'd have a better argument with 4-5 first round exits instead

That and the way both of them have notable underperformance in some key games and series.
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:09 AM   #546
rmt
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

IMO, MJ is the GOAT - this from someone who's not a fan of his.
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:44 AM   #547
elementally morale
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Interestingly, I think Jordan was the best individual player the game has ever seen but if I were putting together a team I'd draft Magic first.
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Old 09-29-2017, 01:08 AM   #548
Kawhi m8
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Of course he is.

He is the unanimous with anyone with a half a clue who isn't biased.
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Old 09-29-2017, 03:32 AM   #549
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

I have Jordan as the GOAT and ranked amply above everyone else, but I wouldn't dogmatize him as the unanimous GOAT; unanimity isn't realistically attainable in a sport that's had thousands of players and a wealth of talent among them.

He's still overwhelmingly the consensual GOAT, but there isn't enough separation for him to disabuse even the scholars of the plausibility of another GOAT. Kareem, for example, has a strong case to be made, and I wouldn't argue strongly against him even if I personally disagree with it; and while LeBron isn't realistically on-pace to dethrone him, he still has a chance to close that runner-up gap further if he can become the second-greatest player of all time.

Still, you won't find many outside of contrarians, agenda-driven stans, and prisoner-of-the-moment phenomenonologists who'll dispute his GOAT status. He certainly could have done more to create more separation (the two years of his first retirement are probably the one major hit on his legacy, as that cost him two prime years of his career to greaten his legacy further), but he doesn't have to worry about being eclipsed by any of the current players judging by their current trajectories.

I think the biggest reason it's even disputed, otherwise, is because there are many fans—including myself—that love to see history being made before their eyes and would love seeing a new GOAT coronated, as such, so the modern-day superstars tend to be romanticized and overestimated at times, but we'll have a more realistic perspective on it when they're in the twilight of their careers and mostly solidified in their rightful places on the ATG-standings.
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:05 AM   #550
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

No, he obviously isn't the unanimous GOAT on ISH, much less so in real life. Why should he be? His all-time competition is tremendous and, last time I checked, he wasn't the best at flat out everything that a player should have, so others will always have good arguments. His fans may claim that he has the best combination of accomplishments, etc, but it's all relevant, we don't need to accept all accomplishments as being equal and, therefore, that the combination of Jordan is necessarily the "best".

PS. If Jordan's offensive game resembled someone's like Alex English's, even if he retained his stats and accomplishments, he wouldn't have anywhere near as much GOAT appeal and people couldn't wait to see him getting surpassed.

PS2. Jordan had already widely been called the GOAT when he first retired in '93. Still think it's the "best combination" stuff that raised him to deification status?
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:38 AM   #551
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

No, Kareem is
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Old 09-29-2017, 03:20 PM   #552
Vman23
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psileas
No, he obviously isn't the unanimous GOAT on ISH, much less so in real life. Why should he be? His all-time competition is tremendous and, last time I checked, he wasn't the best at flat out everything that a player should have, so others will always have good arguments. His fans may claim that he has the best combination of accomplishments, etc, but it's all relevant, we don't need to accept all accomplishments as being equal and, therefore, that the combination of Jordan is necessarily the "best".

PS. If Jordan's offensive game resembled someone's like Alex English's, even if he retained his stats and accomplishments, he wouldn't have anywhere near as much GOAT appeal and people couldn't wait to see him getting surpassed.

PS2. Jordan had already widely been called the GOAT when he first retired in '93. Still think it's the "best combination" stuff that raised him to deification status?

So you don't think MJ is considered the GOAT in real life? I'd say whether it's wrong or right, it's pretty much a consensus and majority group thought that MJ is the greatest basketball player of all time.

"Why should he be?"

Others have good arguments, but I think MJ has the best argument and has less holes in his argument then the other candidates. There are 'core' accomplishments and 'core' stats we use to evaluate the all-time greats, and MJ is the best combination of those things. Kareem is the next closest, but the problem with Kareem's 6 championships is that some would consider Magic Johnson to be just as important if not more in most of those titles.
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:15 PM   #553
Psileas
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vman23
So you don't think MJ is considered the GOAT in real life? I'd say whether it's wrong or right, it's pretty much a consensus and majority group thought that MJ is the greatest basketball player of all time.

"Why should he be?"

Others have good arguments, but I think MJ has the best argument and has less holes in his argument then the other candidates. There are 'core' accomplishments and 'core' stats we use to evaluate the all-time greats, and MJ is the best combination of those things. Kareem is the next closest, but the problem with Kareem's 6 championships is that some would consider Magic Johnson to be just as important if not more in most of those titles.

No, Clips, I know Jordan is not the unanimous GOAT in ISH, much less in real life. The question wasn't about "consensus" and obviously was ridiculous to begin with.
As for "less holes", again, whether this amounts for anything depends on what you value more. If team impact towards flat-out winning is considered more important to someone, Russell's "holes" are excused. We all know, after all, that Jordan's own statistical holes (e.g, mediocre shooting in the 1996, 1998 Finals, poor all-around stats in the 1998 Finals) are excused thanks to the result.
And we also know that Jordan was already considered the GOAT by a lot back in '93, when he had more holes and less accomplishments than later on.
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:42 PM   #554
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Nobody on anything is 'unanimous' at anything.

One could argue that the 'majority', but not 'unanimous'. Unanimous indicates that 100% of people agree.

Mj is however the GOAT for the vast majority.
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:52 PM   #555
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Yes.
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