Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-31-2012, 02:02 PM   #61
jlip
College star
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Memphis
Posts: 4,087
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMan
Russell was great and all but his offensive game was lacking, I wouldn't even consider Russell GOAT center...

Best winner or best leader but what he brought to the floor skillwise on both side of the court...just no.

Russell did what was necessary to accomplish the goal of any team, and that was to win. It was the consensus of the players, media, and coaches that, during his prime, Russell was the primary reason his teams accomplished that goal. If Russell had to lead his team in scoring, as he did in multiple Finals, he did. If he had to set still standing fg% records in the Finals he did. If he had to dominate the boards and control the paint, as he did in every playoffs, he did. If he had to lead his team in assists, as he did in multiple playoffs and Finals, he did. If he actually had to coach the team itself he did. That's what mattered. Give me a guy who could do basically whatever I asked him to do and contribute to my team winning.

I know that in a MJ versus Russell discussion we're talking about radically different positions and styles in which there is virtually no way to make a legitimate comparison, but Russell could and did lead his team in scoring in the playoffs and win multiple titles. Could MJ lead his team in rebounding, control the paint, and win a title? I doubt it. Again I know that we're speaking of vastly different positions, and that may seem to be an unfair question, but just as MJ brought something to the table that Russell didn't, Russell brought something to the table that MJ didn't.
jlip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 02:02 PM   #62
gengiskhan
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,521
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlip
I don't have a personal GOAT myself. I rank as tiers, but allow me to provide some different perspectives here. Personally for every criterion you have here you could replace MJ's name with Russell's. My comments are in blue.

You can try & sell Russell all you want. Kareem will always be standing in russells way. If aint kareem, then Wilt & his dominant STATs.

You know your comments are extremely limited to western world & english speaking nations at most.

World Knows Michael Jordan & Mohammed Ali & Pele. Russell or Jackie or babe ruth all these guys have never ever transcended the game like Ali, Jordan, Pele did.

Take a trip to today's India or today's China or Today's remote African tribal nations and ask who you they have heard of. Ali, Jordan, pele or Russell or Jackie or Ruth or kareem or whoever.

They'll give you 3 answers:

Muhammad Ali

Michael Jordan

Pele

case closed.

nice try btw.
gengiskhan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 02:04 PM   #63
gengiskhan
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,521
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaWolf24
Love you too guy's!!!



Honestly....thanks to everyone here...love talking hoops / trash/ OT wit eryone....


.





even you Genghis...

damn.

never expected that from you in return. same to you my brothaaaa.
gengiskhan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 02:06 PM   #64
jlip
College star
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Memphis
Posts: 4,087
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gengiskhan
You can try & sell Russell all you want. Kareem will always be standing in russells way. If aint kareem, then Wilt & his dominant STATs.

You know your comments are extremely limited to western world & english speaking nations at most.

World Knows Michael Jordan & Mohammed Ali & Pele. Russell or Jackie or babe ruth all these guys have never ever transcended the game like Ali, Jordan, Pele did.

Take a trip to today's India or today's China or Today's remote African tribal nations and ask who you they have heard of. Ali, Jordan, pele or Russell or Jackie or Ruth or kareem or whoever.

They'll give you 3 answers:

Muhammad Ali

Michael Jordan

Pele

case closed.

nice try btw.

You said transcended the game (i.e. impact beyond just playing the sport). You didn't say popular. Popularity alone doesn't make you greater.
jlip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 02:12 PM   #65
gengiskhan
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,521
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlip
You said transcended the game (i.e. impact beyond just playing the sport). You didn't say popular. Popularity alone doesn't make you greater.

missed the whole point.

They got that popular BECAUSE they transcended their sports forever!. The sport was always there before them & after them. It was never the same once the world saw "them"

Ali did that to Boxing

Pele did that to Soccer

Jordan did that to Basketball

I mean just look at NBAs desperation to some how turn lesser talents into new MJ by bending every defensive rule in the book.
gengiskhan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 02:23 PM   #66
AlphaWolf24
Bringer of Rain
 
AlphaWolf24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,246
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMan
I doubt you did, look at his offensive stats, he was known because of his defense and leadership skills, he was never the Celtics #1 offensive option (especially when he was lucky enough to have a bunch of HOFers as teammates).

What Hakeem did carrying a bunch of role players and over the hill guys to back to back titles=Russell and a stacked team winning 9 chips in a decade when there were like 10 teams in the NBA.


- I never watched Russell play...

- I wasn't alive....

- I'm not acting like I'm an expert on his overall game.

- I'm not degrading him...calling him "lucky" or not as good as Akeem.

- all I can go by is his highlights , my personel opinion forged through expierience ( went to a basketball camp at USF in 1990 and talked to many people who watched him play live)...and his career in hindsight.



- Russell did whatever it took to win , Boston never won anything before Russell joined the team....despite having 4 future HOF'ers....Russell went on to win 6 Titles without Cousy...in a 14 team league also.

- when Russell retired the Celtics fell to the basement of the NBA

- He won with a tireless mindset , Top Shelf defense and a slightly above average offensive skillset....he was clear and away the greatest winner / star of his generation....what else are you as a player supposed to do?.....except to win?

- Hakeem had some great players on his Championship teams....Horry and Cassell played outta thier Minds...Thorpe was a solid player....Drexler still had some left...and Kenny Smith made some huge shots...saying Hakeem had no good players is like saying Duncan had no good players (Gino/Parker/Robinson)..and it's not like NY Knicks were a great team either.

- Russell did not just win 9 titles.....He led his college team to back 2 back NCAA Titles.....he led team USA to GOLD..and dominated more then the Dream TEAM!!.....again....Russell's team Dominated more then the Dream TEAM!!!..then won 11 Titles in the Pro's.....

either he was the geratest winner with the greatest mindset...or he was just "Lucky"...

everyone I talked to that knew him or played with him......never said Luck had anything to do with it.
AlphaWolf24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 02:24 PM   #67
AlphaWolf24
Bringer of Rain
 
AlphaWolf24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,246
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gengiskhan
missed the whole point.

They got that popular BECAUSE they transcended their sports forever!. The sport was always there before them & after them. It was never the same once the world saw "them"

Ali did that to Boxing

Pele did that to Soccer

Jordan did that to Basketball

I mean just look at NBAs desperation to some how turn lesser talents into new MJ by bending every defensive rule in the book.


I would say Magic and Bird had a bigger impact on basketball then Jordan
AlphaWolf24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 02:28 PM   #68
swi7ch
Banned
 
swi7ch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,372
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Not just on ISH, everywhere.
swi7ch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 02:30 PM   #69
kennethgriffin
NBA Legend
 
kennethgriffin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,734
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

russell, kareem and MJ each have a valid case for GOAT

depending on what major factor you value most and how you value past generations


there is no clear cut GOAT

i myself say jordan only because its easier for kobe to catch jordans 6 than russells 11

which probably means russell is the real goat

/thread
kennethgriffin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 02:32 PM   #70
gengiskhan
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,521
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaWolf24
I would say Magic and Bird had a bigger impact on basketball then Jordan

No they didn't

Magic & Bird "transformed" the game. played for NBA's 2 best winningest franchise. with "stacked" teams with hall-of-fame Big Men ala Kobe.

But they were extremely efficient. be it scoring, passing, rebounding, leadership, intangibles, IQ etc etc.

Both popularized the sport.

MJ is the only one that "transcended" the sport like Pele, Ali.
gengiskhan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 02:35 PM   #71
gengiskhan
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,521
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennethgriffin
russell, kareem and MJ each have a valid case for GOAT

depending on what major factor you value most and how you value past generations


there is no clear cut GOAT

i myself say jordan only because its easier for kobe to catch jordans 6 than russells 11

which probably means russell is the real goat

/thread

Russell: offense is a suspect

Kareem: defense is a suspect for a big men hence no DPOY trophies

MJ: offense + defense + intangibles everything. He had it all. He won it all.

case closed.

MJ is a GOAT unanimous & consensus. there is no weakness with MJ unlike russell or Kareem or Magic or Bird.

MJ was "IT"

stop running around the bushes with kobe "collecting" rings. He will neither be above Russell or MJ
gengiskhan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 02:37 PM   #72
jlip
College star
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Memphis
Posts: 4,087
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gengiskhan
missed the whole point.

They got that popular BECAUSE they transcended their sports forever!. The sport was always there before them & after them. It was never the same once the world saw "them"

Ali did that to Boxing

Pele did that to Soccer

Jordan did that to Basketball

I mean just look at NBAs desperation to some how turn lesser talents into new MJ by bending every defensive rule in the book.

Russell paved the way for an entire race of people including MJ to even play and succeed in the sport by breaking down various racial barriers and even serving as a social mentor to Ali. Russell completely revolutionized the social and cultural dynamics of basketball and all of sports. Before Russell, basketball was not popular amongst African Americans. He was the one who challenged the league to allow more Black players to play when his contemporaries such as Wilt and Oscar kept silent. Partially due to him basketball is the most popular sport amongst African Americans today.

But it's much bigger than basketball. Russell's success as the 1st Black head coach in all of professional sports paved the way for the historic Super Bowl in 2006 between the Colts and Bears featuring two African American head coaches, Tony Dungy and Lovie Smith. Russell’s success as a black man in a position of leadership blazed the trail allowing Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan to be owners of professional franchises during the 21st century.

Just because these facts are not lauded by pop culture and expressed in the media doesn't discount their importance. MJ's effect while undeniably magnanimous was more cosmetic and the result of him playing during the growth of television.

BTW...Russell changed some of the rules of the game also. I suggest you read a book entitled, King of the Court: Bill Russell and the Basketball Revolution by Aram Goudsouzian. It provides wonderful insight into the cultural and social significance of Russell and the hostile environment in which he made his impact.

I cringed when I heard Lebron say that the league should retire MJ's #23 then he went and decided to wear #6 which was Russell's jersey #. I was like someone please inform Lebron of Russell's impact.

Last edited by jlip : 07-31-2012 at 02:50 PM.
jlip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 03:04 PM   #73
jlip
College star
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Memphis
Posts: 4,087
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gengiskhan
Russell: offense is a suspect

Kareem: defense is a suspect for a big men hence no DPOY trophies

MJ: offense + defense + intangibles everything. He had it all. He won it all.

case closed.

MJ is a GOAT unanimous & consensus. there is no weakness with MJ unlike russell or Kareem or Magic or Bird.

MJ was "IT"

stop running around the bushes with kobe "collecting" rings. He will neither be above Russell or MJ

At the Kareem statement, you're really showing a lack of understanding of pre MJ basketball. The reason Kareem has no DPOY is because the award was not created until 1983, his 14th season in the league. His defense was not suspect. He not only was routinely at or near the top of the league in rebounds for an entire decade, but also led the league in blocks 4 separate seasons. He has 11 all defensive team selections including five 1st teams which is impressive considering that there is only one center on each team as opposed to 2 for guards and forwards. I would like to think that a player who led the league in blocks while being near the top in rebounding and on the 1st defensive team would have won a DPOY trophy had it existed at the time. Finally thanks to ThaRegul8r we also know that on the Bucks, Kareem anchored the defense in Milwaukee that allowed the lowest fg% in the entire league.
jlip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 03:09 PM   #74
AlphaWolf24
Bringer of Rain
 
AlphaWolf24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,246
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gengiskhan
No they didn't

Magic & Bird "transformed" the game. played for NBA's 2 best winningest franchise. with "stacked" teams with hall-of-fame Big Men ala Kobe.

But they were extremely efficient. be it scoring, passing, rebounding, leadership, intangibles, IQ etc etc.

Both popularized the sport.

MJ is the only one that "transcended" the sport like Pele, Ali.

the rivalry between Magic and Bird actually "transcended" the sport more then any basketball player/players ever.

It started in college during the Final Four....and peaked in the NBA (very unique)

The Rivalry took Basketball to the masses and had many media friendly attributes.

"Black vs White"

"Style vs Substance"

"East coast vs West Coast"

" Lakers vs Celtics"

"Magic vs Larry...who was better"

unless you lived through that era...you don't really have a clear understanding how much that rivalry impacted sports/basketball/race.

That rivalry trancended Basketball/sports and ushered in a whole new generation of fans....the rivalry brought Race relations/and sports together again into the forefront of 2 surging athletes into superstardom...

Legend and Magic built the table...layed down the table Cloth....and served a 3 course meal.....MJ served dessert...(wich just so happens to be everyones favorite)

Last edited by AlphaWolf24 : 07-31-2012 at 03:21 PM.
AlphaWolf24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 03:23 PM   #75
The Iron Fist
Great college starter
 
The Iron Fist's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,702
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gengiskhan
Russell: offense is a suspect

Kareem: defense is a suspect for a big men hence no DPOY trophies

MJ: offense + defense + intangibles everything. He had it all. He won it all.

case closed.

MJ is a GOAT unanimous & consensus. there is no weakness with MJ unlike russell or Kareem or Magic or Bird.

MJ was "IT"

stop running around the bushes with kobe "collecting" rings. He will neither be above Russell or MJ
Dpoy started in 83. Kareem started his career when blocks and steals werent even tracked. Looking at his stats for those, its not hard to believe he may have won it in the 70s.


Use context you square.
The Iron Fist is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:54 PM.




NBA BASKETBALL FORUM KEY LINKS:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
Search Site

FOLLOW US
Twitter
Facebook
















Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy