Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-31-2012, 05:28 AM   #1
jlauber
3-time NBA All-Star
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,836
Default Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season

Chamberlain has been labeled a "choker" in his post-season career. Let's revisit his post-season career, and more importantly, his performances in the pivotal "must-win" games, as well those that clinched the series' wins. Furthermore, I am including the performance of his OPPOSING centers in those series.

1959-60. Wilt's ROOKIE season. Keep in mind that Chamberlain came to a LAST-PLACE team, and immediately led them to a then best-ever team record of 49-26.

The first round of the playoffs was a BEST-OF-THREE series. In the clinching game three win (both a "clincher" and a "must-win"), all Wilt did was score 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. How about his OPPOSING center? Multiple all-star Red Kerr had SEVEN points.

Comments: Chamberlain averaged 38.7 ppg in that series, along with 22.3 rpg. Meanwhile, his OPPOSING center, Kerr, averaged 13.7 ppg, 8.3 rpg, and shot, get this, ... .294 from the field.

ECF's. In a "must-win" game five, Chamberlain put up a 50 point, 35 rebound, 22-42 game against Russell, in leading Philly to a win. Russell had a 22 point, 27 rebound game. In the clinching game six two-point loss, Chamberlain had 26 points and 24 rebounds, while Russell put up a 25 point, 25 rebound game.

Comments: Wilt averaged 30.5 ppg in that series, along with 27.5 rpg. Russell was at 20.7 ppg and 27.0 rpg.

Incidently, Chamberlain shot .496 in the playoffs that post-season, in a league that shot .410 overall. Meanwhile, his teammates collectively shot .380 in the post-season.


60-61. Chamberlain's team was swept by Syracuse, 3-0. In the clinching game three loss, Chamberlain scored 33 points. His two opposing centers, Red Kerr and 7-3 Swede Halbrook scored 6 and 7 points respectively.

Comments: Chamberlain averaged 37.0 ppg and 23.0 rpg on .469 shooting (in a league that shot .415), which included a 46 point outburst in game one. His two opposing centers, Kerr and Halbrook, averaged 8.0 ppg and 11.3 ppg respectively. BTW, the Warriors lost one game by three points, and another by one point. How did Wilt's teammates shoot in that series? .332. Yes, .332 from the field.


61-62. The first round of the playoffs were a best-of-five series. In the must-win and clinching game five win, Chamberlain scored 56 points, with 35 rebounds, and on 22-48 shooting. His opposing center, Red Kerr, had 20 points.

Comments: Chamberlain averaged 37 ppg, 26.2 rpg, and shot .466 from the floor in that series (in a league that shot .426.) Kerr averaged 17.6 ppg, 16.0 rpg, and shot .376.

ECF's. In a must-win game six win, Wilt put up a 32 point, 21 rebound game, while Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds. In the game seven, two-point loss, Wilt was held to a season-low, 22 points, with 21 rebounds (Pollack had him with 22 BTW), on 7-15 shooting. Russell had 19 points, 22 rebounds, on 7-14 shooting.

Comments: Chamberlain outscored Russell, per game, 33.7 ppg to 22.0 ppg, outrebounded Russell, per game, 26.9 rpg, to Russell's 25.9 rpg, and outshot Russell by a .468 to .420 (approx...Russell shot .500 in his Finals, and .457 overall in the playoffs, with half of his 14 games against Wilt.)

Incidently, in the entire post-season, Wilt shot .467, while his teammates collectively shot .354. Despite that horrible shooting, Chamberlain carried that 49-31 team to a game seven, two point loss against the 60-20 Celtics and their SEVEN HOFers. And in game seven of the Finals, Wilt converted a three-point play late to tie the game. Sam Jones hit the game winner over Wilt's outstretched hand. Game recaps credit Chamberlain with "outstanding defense" in that game. BTW, in game two, in a seven point win, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 42-9, and outrebounded him, 37-20.

And for those that claim that Russell really held Chamberlain down in the Finals, based on Wilt's 50.4 ppg .506 regular season numbers... during their regular season H2H's, Wilt averaged 38 ppg on .471 shooting against Russell. In the seven game ECF's, Wilt averaged 33.7 ppg on .468 shooting. Not nearly as dramatic as those like Simmons would claim.


63-64. In a game seven win of the first round of the WCF's, Chamberlain put up a 39 point, 26 rebound, 10 block game. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty (who would go on to be a multiple all-star BTW) had 10 points. For the series, Chamberlain averaged 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, and shot .559. Beaty averaged 14.3 ppg, 9.5 rpg, and shot .521 from the floor.

Comments: Incidently, that .521 by Beaty was the highest opposing FG% that I could find that Wilt allowed in the post-season. And Jerry Lucas' .500 in the '72 Finals, were the only two that I could find in which he allowed an opposing center, in 29 playoff series, to shoot .500 or better.

Oh, and Wilt had a 50 point game, on 22-32 shooting, in game five of that series.

Finals. In the clinching game five loss, Wilt had a 30 point, 27 rebound game. Russell had a 14 point, 26 rebound game.

Comments: Chamberlain outscored Russell, per game, in the Finals, 29.2 ppg to Russell's 11.2 ppg. Wilt outrebounded Russell, per game, 27.6 rpg, to 25.2 rpg. And Chamberlain shot .517 from the floor in that series. I couldn't find Russell's FG% in that series, but in his ten post-season games, he shot .356, and half of those ten games were against Chamberlain.

Wilt's 48-32 Warriors were outgunned in HOFers by Russell's Celtics, 8-2 (and Chamberlain's lone HOF teammate was rookie Nate Thurmond, who was playing part-time, out of position, and shooting .395 in the process.) Two of the losses were decided in the last few seconds, as well. In the game four, 98-95 loss, Wilt outscored Russell, 27-8, and outrebounded Russell, 38-19.


64-65. In the clinching game four win of the first round of the playoffs against the Royals (in a best-of-five series), Wilt had 38 points. His opposing center, HOFer and multiple all-star, Wayne Embry, had 7 points.

Comments: Wilt averaged 22.5 ppg and 15.6 rpg in the series. Embry averaged 12.8 ppg, 6.3 rpg, and shot .438 from the floor. Clearly, Wilt saved his best effort in that series, for the clincher.

ECF's. In the clinching game seven, one point loss, Wilt scored 30 points, on 12-15 shooting from the floor, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting from the field, with 29 rebounds (as well as many blocks.)

Chamberlain scored six of Philly's last eight points, (including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs left, and a dunk over Russell with 5 secs left), in bringing the 40-40 Sixers back from a 110-101 deficit to within 110-109. Russell then hit guidewire with the inbounds pass, and the Sixers had an opportunity to pull off a major upset over the 62-18 Celtics. However, "Havlicek stole the ball", and the Sixers lost that game seven by one point.

Comments: Chamberlain outscored Russell per game, 30.1 ppg to 15.6 ppg, and outrebounded Russell, per game, 31.6 rpg to 25.3 rpg. Russell shot .451 from the floor against Wilt (which was probably his HIGHEST post-season FG% series against Chamberlain), and while I couldn't find Wilt's FG% in that series, he shot .530 overall in the playoffs, with seven of his 11 games against Russell.

Chamberlain shot .530 in the post-season, and his teammates collectively shot .413.


To be continued...

Last edited by jlauber : 01-31-2012 at 06:02 AM.
jlauber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 06:17 AM   #2
Kblaze8855
Titles are overrated
 
Kblaze8855's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: I love me some me.
Posts: 11,980
Default Re: Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season

Wilt averaged 30/23 for his career. You could pull any numbers from any situation...at random...the numbers alone are gonna look good. He never had a game under 10 rebounds. He played 47 minutes a game for his playoff career. The least minutes he played in a playoff run...ever...was 46.2. You arent gonna play Wilt 46-49 minutes(he averaged 48.5 one rum...im guessing he played every minute of the playoffs) on a team that scores over 130 points 35 times in a season(at a glance...30+ times in 67) and not have him produce epic numbers.

I dont think the people who hate on wilt think that he put up 12/8 in closeout games. You pull 5 Wilt games out at random he probably has like 34/22, 20/28/12, 55/33, 14/25/8, and 47/32/6.

Wilt isnt a guy who is gonna have bad numbers or have been out produced by his opponent. His opponent probably averaged better numbers than him coming into the series in 2-3 series ever...probably all of them vs Kareem or Reed when he was old. Why would Johnny Kerr and his 15ppg on 38% shooting have better numbers than Wilt? Why would Wayne Embry(no doubt a good player...and quite strong...but he isnt in the HOF as a player) have better numbers than Wilt? He averaged 13 a game that season.

And how many of wilts opposing center would be expected to shoot 50% anyway? Walt bellamy? Lucas? that it? Maybe some of the guys who came in mid 60s like Reed. Embry, Russell, thurmond, Kerr, and most of the late 50s early 60s guys were shooting in the low 40s(sometimes high 30s) anyway.

Wilt has the statistical advantage over over pretty much everyone ever no matter the situation doesnt he?
Kblaze8855 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 06:22 AM   #3
32Dayz
Banned
 
32Dayz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,043
Default Re: Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season

Wilt definitely played good in many games and series in the post season where his team was eliminated in.

In those games and series they lost because either the opposing team was better then his team as a whole or because his supporting cast played poorly.

He should not be blamed for those losses but praised for his excellent play in defeat.

32Dayz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 06:23 AM   #4
jlauber
3-time NBA All-Star
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,836
Default Re: Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Wilt averaged 30/23 for his career. You could pull any numbers from any situation...at random...the numbers alone are gonna look good. He never had a game under 10 rebounds. He played 47 minutes a game for his playoff career. The least minutes he played in a playoff run...ever...was 46.2. You arent gonna play Wilt 46-49 minutes(he averaged 48.5 one rum...im guessing he played every minute of the playoffs) on a team that scores over 130 points 35 times in a season(at a glance...30+ times in 67) and not have him produce epic numbers.

I dont think the people who hate on wilt think that he put up 12/8 in closeout games. You pull 5 Wilt games out at random he probably has like 34/22, 20/28/12, 55/33, 14/25/8, and 47/32/6.

Wilt isnt a guy who is gonna have bad numbers or have been out produced by his opponent. His opponent probably averaged better numbers than him coming into the series in 2-3 series ever...probably all of them vs Kareem or Reed when he was old. Why would Johnny Kerr and his 15ppg on 38% shooting have better numbers than Wilt? Why would Wayne Embry(no doubt a good player...and quite strong...but he isnt in the HOF as a player) have better numbers than Wilt? He averaged 13 a game that season.

And how many of wilts opposing center would be expected to shoot 50% anyway? Walt bellamy? Lucas? that it? Maybe some of the guys who came in mid 60s like Reed. Embry, Russell, thurmond, Kerr, and most of the late 50s early 60s guys were shooting in the low 40s(sometimes high 30s) anyway.

Wilt has the statistical advantage over over pretty much everyone ever no matter the situation doesnt he?

Real quickly, (and I will post the "must-win" and clinching games later), Kareem shot .481 and .457 against Wilt in their two H2H playoff series (in seasons in which he shot .577 and .574.) Bellamy shot .421 in the 67-68 playoffs against Wilt, in a season in which he shot .541 from the floor.
jlauber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 06:25 AM   #5
32Dayz
Banned
 
32Dayz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,043
Default Re: Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
Real quickly, (and I will post the "must-win" and clinching games later), Kareem shot .481 and .457 against Wilt in their two H2H playoff series (in seasons in which he shot .577 and .574.) Bellamy shot .421 in the 67-68 playoffs against Wilt, in a season in which he shot .541 from the floor.

I dont think anyone would be surprised that he dominated his opponents.
You almost say it like we should be surprised.

Back then there were very few Centers on par with Wilt and obviously he is one of the greatest Centers ever.

This is especially true when you just look at his size and athleticism... he was so far beyond anyone back then.
32Dayz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 06:30 AM   #6
jlauber
3-time NBA All-Star
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,836
Default Re: Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season

Quote:
Originally Posted by 32Dayz
I dont think anyone would be surprised that he dominated his opponents.
You almost say it like we should be surprised.

Back then there were very few Centers on par with Wilt and obviously he is one of the greatest Centers ever.

This is especially true when you just look at his size and athleticism... he was so far beyond anyone back then.

Chamberlain, in his prime, faced guys like 6-10 Russell (with his 7-4 wingspan and world-class leaping ability), 6-11 Nate Thurmond (who had a longer wingsan that Wilt's 7-8), and 6-11 Walt Bellamy. Keep in mind that those players were all measured in barefeet, and would be around 7-0 now. He also faced many other 6-11 and even some 7-0 footers (Mel Counts, Hank Finkle, 7-3 Swede Halbrook, Walter Dukes, and some others.)

Later in his career he more than held his own against 7-2 Kareem, 6-11 Bob Lanier, and even 7-2 Artis Gilmore (the two met in the 71-72 NBA-ABA all-star game.)
jlauber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 06:31 AM   #7
Kblaze8855
Titles are overrated
 
Kblaze8855's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: I love me some me.
Posts: 11,980
Default Re: Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season

As I said...bellamy and a couple others. but most of the best bigmen wouldnt shoot that anyway. I believe Wilt set the all time record 3-4 times and it was like 52% and 54% and so on before it climed int othe 60s and 70s later. People didnt shoot 50% on a regular basis then. MVP bigmen might shoot 43%. just feels cheap talking about his opponents not shooting 50% when they shoot in the 30s and 40s anyway.
Kblaze8855 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 06:32 AM   #8
32Dayz
Banned
 
32Dayz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,043
Default Re: Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
Chamberlain, in his prime, faced guys like 6-10 Russell (with his 7-4 wingspan and world-class leaping ability), 6-11 Nate Thurmond (who had a longer wingsan that Wilt's 7-8), and 6-11 Walt Bellamy. Keep in mind that those players were all measured in barefeet, and would be around 7-0 now. He also faced many other 6-11 and even some 7-0 footers (Mel Counts, Hank Finkle, 7-3 Swede Halbrook, Walter Dukes, and some others.)

Later in his career he more than held his own against 7-2 Kareem, 6-11 Bob Lanier, and even 7-2 Artis Gilmore (the two met in the 71-72 NBA-ABA all-star game.)

I dont think Wilts competition at his position was super-lative in his early years.

Russell was a great opponent as was Thurmond and obviously later on Kareem and Artis would be great opponents.

Still overall I dont think his competition really measured up to him and against most teams his advantage in skill and especially athleticism would be pronounced and huge.

He proved himself against great players though
(none better then Russell defensively) so it really didn't matter.
32Dayz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 06:43 AM   #9
jlauber
3-time NBA All-Star
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,836
Default Re: Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
As I said...bellamy and a couple others. but most of the best bigmen wouldnt shoot that anyway. I believe Wilt set the all time record 3-4 times and it was like 52% and 54% and so on before it climed int othe 60s and 70s later. People didnt shoot 50% on a regular basis then. MVP bigmen might shoot 43%. just feels cheap talking about his opponents not shooting 50% when they shoot in the 30s and 40s anyway.

Regardless, Wilt ROUTINELY held his opposing centers WAY below their normal FG%'s in his post-season career. Several by around 100 points, or more. I have already given you Wilt holding Kareem to .481 and .457 in seasons in which he shot .577 and .574; as well as Bellamy's .421 in a season in which he shot .541.

But, he held Kerr to .296 in one playoff series, in a season in which Kerr shot .392. He held Russell to .358 shooting in the '67 ECF's, in a season in which Russell shot .454. He also held Thurmond to .343 shooting the Finals that season, in a season in which Nate shot .437.

In fact, he outshot Thurmond, in their three playoff series, by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and .560 to .343.

The bottom line was that Chamberlain was DRAMATICALLY reducing his opposing centers efficiency in the post-season. Which is often over-looked in these discussions of Wilt's supposed "decline" in the post-season.
jlauber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 06:54 AM   #10
jlauber
3-time NBA All-Star
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,836
Default Re: Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season

BTW, Julizaver, whose research has proven to be dead-on now that we have the boxscores of every NBA game...

claims that in Wilt's NINE game-seven's, Chamberlain averaged 24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and shot, get this... .626 from the field, which is the highest among the all-time "greats."

Factor in Wilt's 56-35 game five of a best-of-series, and his 53-22 game three of a best-of-three series, and his scoring numbers would be at 29.9 ppg in his eleven "best-of-series" games, while he also would have averaged 26.6 rpg. True, his FG% would have dropped with a total shooting percentage of .511 in those two other elimination games, but he still would have been around 60%.

Think about that...in Wilt's 11 games in which it went down to the wire in the "best of" series (nine game seven's, and one game five of a best-of-five, and one game three of a best-of-three series), all Chamberlain could do was average 29.9 ppg , 26.6 rpg, and shoot about .600 (in leagues that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Or nearly a 30-27 .600 average game in EVERY "must-win" "best-of" game.


Yep...that was Wilt the "choker."
jlauber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 08:59 AM   #11
Asukal
Good High School Starter
 
Asukal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 986
Default Re: Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season

You'd deliberately start a thread about Wilt just so you can continue posting your essays which nobody reads.... that's sad man, real sad. Wilt is universally accepted as top 1-5 player all time, get over it and start acting your age.
Asukal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 09:10 AM   #12
32Dayz
Banned
 
32Dayz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,043
Default Re: Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asukal
You'd deliberately start a thread about Wilt just so you can continue posting your essays which nobody reads.... that's sad man, real sad. Wilt is universally accepted as top 1-5 player all time, get over it and start acting your age.

Whats the big deal.

It's not like the board is flooded with Wilt threads.

Not many people know as much about Wilt as Lauber so I dont mind him sharing his knowledge.

Dont be so butthurt.
32Dayz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 09:25 AM   #13
Asukal
Good High School Starter
 
Asukal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 986
Default Re: Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season

Quote:
Originally Posted by 32Dayz
Whats the big deal.

It's not like the board is flooded with Wilt threads.

Not many people know as much about Wilt as Lauber so I dont mind him sharing his knowledge.

Dont be so butthurt.

He claims people disrespect Wilt and call him a loser and a choker which isn't true. He can't seem to understand people troll him just for the heck of it, and like a fish he bites the bait everytime. He is always insecure and has this abnormal need to defend him even when no one is attacking Wilt (remember he started this thread). Its just pathetic and sad a man his age would go to such lengths.
Asukal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 01:09 PM   #14
Deuce Bigalow
3-time NBA All-Star
 
Deuce Bigalow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,706
Default Re: Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season

What's his FT%
Deuce Bigalow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 02:59 PM   #15
La Frescobaldi
I brick nerf balls
 
La Frescobaldi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,310
Default Re: Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season

I remember Wilt Chamberlain in the 70s, after he retired he said a few times that the best basketball player he ever saw was Meadowlark Lemon in the 50s. Wilt played one game after he retired, and it was for Meadowlark's team the Bucketeers....

Meadowlark's comment from about 2003 or 04:
http://blackpressusa.com/news/Articl...ts&NewsID=8113

OBSERVER: I know you are a fan of the NBA. Name your all-time former NBA players and your favorite current NBA player?
"ML: Oh gosh, there are too many of them! You have the “Big Dipper” (Wilt), you have Bill Russell, you got to put Michael Jordan in there, he is from my home town, you have Dr. J (Julius Erving) and the Big “O,” Oscar Robertson. You got Kevin Johnson from right here in Sacramento. Today, if I were going to start a team, my choice would be Tim Duncan."

*******************
People don't really know that Chamberlain played basketball non-stop year round.
When the season ended each year, he went to Europe and played with the Globetrotters. He played with Meadowlark for 13 years and they never lost a game. The Globies got the reputation later on of playing the local town team or whatever, but in those days they were playing the elite teams of Europe and just putting on the grandstand show while walloping everyone.

*******************
My whole life Bill Russell has been saying Wilt Chamberlain was the best basketball player of all time.

*******************

People don't know how a lot of those games ended. Wilt's granny free throws were total goofball lookin, but make no mistake late in the 4th quarter they went in.

Centers aren't usually known for being "clutch," that has never been their role. But if I'm not mistaken, the only center with more game-winners than Chamberlain is Kareem, who played 20 years.
La Frescobaldi is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:52 PM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy