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Old 01-16-2015, 03:24 PM   #1
Nanners
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Default Going Vegan

I have been a carnivore my entire life, but in the past few weeks I have been thinking about trying to go vegan.

It seems like the moral justification for farming livestock is based on the fact that farm animals are cognitively inferior to humans, so it is therefore it is acceptable to exploit them. Lately I dont really buy this justification anymore.

How you would feel if aliens with superior intelligence and technology arrived on earth and enslaved humanity to farm us for food products on an industrial scale. Would the aliens be morally justified in doing this, since we humans are cognitively inferior to them?
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Old 01-16-2015, 03:27 PM   #2
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Default Re: Going Vegan

Considering the aliens did not evolve with us over millenia while serving as predators your analogy is poor.

That being said, going for vegan straight from a diet with a large component of animal protein is most certainly setting yourself up for failure.

It would be a good idea to ease yourself into a diet with only 1-2 nights of terrestrial protein via flesh or dairy a week.
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Old 01-16-2015, 03:33 PM   #3
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Default Re: Going Vegan

My wife is vegan and I respect it. More power to you, hope you can do it.

I on the other hand eat meat, but I try to make an effort to purchase only organic, grass fed, open range, cage free, etc meat. That in itself is very difficult though, and I am not 100%.

I believe that it is morally sound to eat farmed livestock if they are raised properly. Keep in mind Nanners, we created these animals, if we didn't eat them they simply would not exist. It is not equivalent to "aliens farming us".
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Old 01-16-2015, 03:34 PM   #4
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Default Re: Going Vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceWallaces
Considering the aliens did not evolve with us over millenia while serving as predators your analogy is poor.

That being said, going for vegan straight from a diet with a large component of animal protein is most certainly setting yourself up for failure.

It would be a good idea to ease yourself into a diet with only 1-2 nights of terrestrial protein via flesh or dairy a week.

I think its a solid analogy. When you consider how much humans have advanced technologically in the past few thousand years, from the perspective of a cow or a pig, humans might as well be aliens.

I definitely agree that going straight to a vegan diet seems really difficult, and I need to find a way to ease myself into it. My entire life I have been cooking with animal products and I dont really have any idea where to begin if meat, eggs, cheese, milk, butter, etc are all off the table.

Last edited by Nanners : 01-16-2015 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 01-16-2015, 03:39 PM   #5
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Default Re: Going Vegan

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Originally Posted by ~primetime~
My wife is vegan and I respect it. More power to you, hope you can do it.

I on the other hand eat meat, but I try to make an effort to purchase only organic, grass fed, open range, cage free, etc meat. That in itself is very difficult though, and I am not 100%.

I believe that it is morally sound to eat farmed livestock if they are raised properly. Keep in mind Nanners, we created these animals, if we didn't eat them they simply would not exist. It is not equivalent to "aliens farming us".

Thanks dude

I too make an effort to purchase only organic, grass fed, free range, cage free, etc meat... but recently I have started to think these terms are oxymorons.

Its kind of like saying - I only wear cotton made from a cruelty free slave plantation. Well thats nice that its not as cruel as other plantations, but its still a slave plantation.

I am not really sure that true cruelty free farming is possible, almost any act of farming another animal for its products is cruel.

Last edited by Nanners : 01-16-2015 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 01-16-2015, 03:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: Going Vegan

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I am not really sure that true cruelty free farming is possible, almost any act of farming another animal for its products is cruel.
Do you view eating wild game as 'cruel'?
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Old 01-16-2015, 03:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: Going Vegan

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Originally Posted by Nanners
I think its a solid analogy. When you consider how much humans have advanced technologically in the past few thousand years, from the perspective of a cow or a pig, humans might as well be aliens.

I definitely agree that going straight to a vegan diet seems really difficult, and I need to find a way to ease myself into it. My entire life I have been cooking with animal products and I dont really have any idea where to begin if meat, eggs, cheese, milk, butter, etc are all off the table.

We've evolved with domesticated versions of these animals. The cow or pig as you know it only exist because of our co-evolution. Same can be said for corn, beans, and most crops.

If the aliens domesticate a dumb, less vigilant, fatter versions of ourselves over the course of a few centuries then I'll be with you.

No matter what cognitive reasoning you come up with regards to the value of their life versus ours, humans have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years to have animal products as a modest part of their diet.

You could look at a plant in the same way. They are marvels of biology and life that are inferior to us in many ways. Harvesting wood, foliage, vegetative structures, and especially fruit can place immense stress on their physiology which in many cases leads to death. Vegans like to get on their high horse because a corn stalk can't scream when you rip it out of the ground, but it's no more or less autonomous life than a pig.
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Old 01-16-2015, 03:58 PM   #8
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Default Re: Going Vegan

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Originally Posted by ~primetime~
Do you view eating wild game as 'cruel'?

not really, not compared to farming.
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Old 01-16-2015, 04:05 PM   #9
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Default Re: Going Vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
I have been a carnivore my entire life, but in the past few weeks I have been thinking about trying to go vegan.

It seems like the moral justification for farming livestock is based on the fact that farm animals are cognitively inferior to humans, so it is therefore it is acceptable to exploit them. Lately I dont really buy this justification anymore.

How you would feel if aliens with superior intelligence and technology arrived on earth and enslaved humanity to farm us for food products on an industrial scale. Would the aliens be morally justified in doing this, since we humans are cognitively inferior to them?
Just because you want to make a life change dont try to guilt us into making the same changes.Thats really weak bro
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Old 01-16-2015, 04:06 PM   #10
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Default Re: Going Vegan

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Originally Posted by Im so nba'd out
Just because you want to make a life change dont try to guilt us into making the same changes.Thats really weak bro

sorry if i come off that way. I am not trying to guilt anybody, just explaining how my own opinion on farming has changed.

you should eat whatever you want.

Last edited by Nanners : 01-16-2015 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 01-16-2015, 04:44 PM   #11
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Default Re: Going Vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfessorMurder
Killing a plant is different than killing an animal though, even if they are both living things.

I genuinely feel bad for everything, both plant and animal, and I try to use nothing I don't absolutely need... Hurting some other thing is unfortunately a part of life and the only way to totally avoid it is killing yourself. There is no reason to value your own life over anything else, other than the fact that your brain that is hardwired to do so with a "must reproduce, must not die" preset.

Vegans tend to be asshats, the same as most people in general.

Explain to me how it's different. Because they have a nervous system and vocal chords?
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Old 01-16-2015, 04:46 PM   #12
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Default Re: Going Vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceWallaces
Explain to me how it's different. Because they have a nervous system and vocal chords?
yep, because they feel pain and are capable of 'suffering'
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Old 01-16-2015, 04:53 PM   #13
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Default Re: Going Vegan

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Originally Posted by ~primetime~
yep, because they feel pain and are capable of 'suffering'

Pain is just a way to inform the brain of internal physiological stress.

Plants do this in another way by adjusting hormonal ratios in the stressed area. It's just not triggered via a nervous system, but they are still under physiological duress that may lead to death.

By that logic you would be fine killing animals or humans with congenital analgesia, because they lack the capacity for chemical "pain" and suffering.
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Old 01-16-2015, 04:59 PM   #14
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Default Re: Going Vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceWallaces
Pain is just a way to inform the brain of internal physiological stress.

Plants do this in another way by adjusting hormonal ratios in the stressed area. It's just not triggered via a nervous system, but they are still under physiological duress that may lead to death.

By that logic you would be fine killing animals or humans with congenital analgesia, because they lack the capacity for chemical "pain" and suffering.
exactly, animals are self aware creatures...capable of "physiological stress" and torture

plants are not self aware, there is no brain...they don't have the capacity to give a shit

any mammal in a tortured state =/= any plant in a tortured state
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Old 01-16-2015, 05:04 PM   #15
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Default Re: Going Vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~primetime~
exactly, animals are self aware creatures...capable of "physiological stress" and torture

plants are not self aware, there is no brain...they don't have the capacity to give a shit

any mammal in a tortured state =/= any plant in a tortured state

Animals aren't really self-aware tho. They are conscious but being self-aware is a step above that.
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