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Old 08-14-2012, 10:21 PM   #31
keepinitreal
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Default Re: The Case for Gun Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balla_Status
I hate it when people argue for more gun control by brining up massacres.

All they do is shout, "More Gun Control" without brining up any measures to actually stop these. These morons act like criminals actually follow laws.

And to the bolded, someone with a gun could have a chance to stop it. People have stopped things like this in the past so acting like it's some fantasy is dumb.

The fact is that you don't want people to protect themselves from incidents like these and that's simply twisted.



as for marijuana, teenagers have it in about 100% of our public high schools (U.S). nobody does anything about it.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:24 PM   #32
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Default Re: The Case for Gun Control

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Originally Posted by Milton
You're arguing people can't resist there governments, I don't see why you feel one country is exceptional.

But since you brought it up, the Vietnamese and Afghan's seem to disagree with you. You expect me to believe that the most heavily armed population on the planet has no chance of success against something that has spent 10 years failing to defeat a much smaller amount of extremely poor people?


What in the world are you talking about? Stop being all over the place. I'm talking about America, don't bring up other countries or the illegal wars Bush got us into.

Invading another country has nothing to do with this discussion. The problem in Afghanistan isn't that they are "well armed" but the terrain. Well, that and a million other reasons.

I'm just saying the 2nd amendment is outdated and most people who use it now a days to defend their right to own all sorts of different weapons clearly don't understand what the intent of it was.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:29 PM   #33
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Default Re: The Case for Gun Control

And @ whoever was comparing prohibition and marijuana to guns.

You can make your own moonshine and grow your own weed. Good luck on building a weapon from scratch on your own

The solution isn't to outlaw guns, that ship has sailed. It is impossible to do that. The solution is simple. There are ways to regulate guns and ammo and the such. You shouldn't be able to buy the amount of weapons and ammo the dude in Colorado bought without someone somewhere asking questions.

The biggest obstacle to all of this is the NRA.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:31 PM   #34
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Default Re: The Case for Gun Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajadeed
What in the world are you talking about? Stop being all over the place. I'm talking about America, don't bring up other countries or the illegal wars Bush got us into.

Invading another country has nothing to do with this discussion. The problem in Afghanistan isn't that they are "well armed" but the terrain. Well, that and a million other reasons.

I'm just saying the 2nd amendment is outdated and most people who use it now a days to defend their right to own all sorts of different weapons clearly don't understand what the intent of it was.
I'm sorry you're having trouble but I'm being very clearly, you said the second amendment was outdated then referenced the power of the US Military, well that same military has failed to defeat a much a foe that is far smaller and less well equipped then the American people. The terrain in America is even better for an insurgency then Afghanistan anyway.

Afghanistan wasn't illegal by the way, there was a vote and it was the government not just Bush, last I checked he's not president and you're still there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajadeed
And @ whoever was comparing prohibition and marijuana to guns.

You can make your own moonshine and grow your own weed. Good luck on building a weapon from scratch on your own

The solution isn't to outlaw guns, that ship has sailed. It is impossible to do that. The solution is simple. There are ways to regulate guns and ammo and the such. You shouldn't be able to buy the amount of weapons and ammo the dude in Colorado bought without someone somewhere asking questions.

The biggest obstacle to all of this is the NRA.

The NRA are sell outs and it is just as easy to import or make guns as it is to get drugs, there are websites that show you how to make a tech nine in your garage for example.

I don't see how making it harder for people to follow the law to defend themselves is any kind of solution.

Last edited by Milton : 08-14-2012 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:40 PM   #35
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Default Re: The Case for Gun Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton
I'm sorry you're having trouble but I'm being very clearly, you said the second amendment was outdated then referenced the power of the US Military, well that same military has failed to defeat a much a foe that is far smaller and less well equipped then the American people. The terrain in America is even better for an insurgency then Afghanistan anyway.

Afghanistan wasn't illegal by the way, there was a vote and it was the government not just Bush, last I checked he's not president and you're still there.

Straw man argument.

Afghanistan is just a completely different scenario. Hell, 90% of Americans don't even know who we're fighting over there. It's disingenuous to bring up Afghanistan.

So you obviously think the American public is well-armed enough to stop the government if it went rogue? I'm not sure that scenario is even applicable to today's landscape, but I find it hilarious nonetheless.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:45 PM   #36
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Default Re: The Case for Gun Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton

I don't see how making it harder for people to follow the law to defend themselves is any kind of solution.

How many times has someone with a gun stopped a disaster from occurring?

And how much weapons and ammo do you need to defend yourself? What are you defending yourself from? An invasion?

The automatic weapons, the assault rifles, the thousands and thousands of ammo. That's overboard.

I'd be willing to bet that in most cases where a person is in danger a can of pepper spray or a tazer would be much more effective than a gun.

This isn't the old west where everyone needs a pistol on them at all times. That would just lead to more disasters. Imagine if 4 people were packing in a crowded movie theater and a smoke bomb went off and everyone started shooting...
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:46 PM   #37
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Default Re: The Case for Gun Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajadeed
Straw man argument.

Afghanistan is just a completely different scenario. Hell, 90% of Americans don't even know who we're fighting over there. It's disingenuous to bring up Afghanistan.

So you obviously think the American public is well-armed enough to stop the government if it went rogue? I'm not sure that scenario is even applicable to today's landscape, but I find it hilarious nonetheless.
haha that's not a straw man, that would be misconstruing your position then attacking it.

Your position is that the American people couldn't defeat there government. Thus out dating that aspect of the second amendment.

I am using the example of Afghanistan where a group of people less well equipped and numerous than the American people has been successfully surviving in a war against the American military for several years.

If that inferior group can do it successfully why couldn't the American people?
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:47 PM   #38
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Default Re: The Case for Gun Control

Don't go digging around for specifics on cases, I personally know of a few in the news in the past decade or so where someone with a gun stopped something; although, most of them were gas station workers or people who were in a place that attracts some sort of criminal activity.

As far as every day Joes walking around, you really don't need to be strapped.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:50 PM   #39
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Default Re: The Case for Gun Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajadeed
Don't go digging around for specifics on cases, I personally know of a few in the news in the past decade or so where someone with a gun stopped something; although, most of them were gas station workers or people who were in a place that attracts some sort of criminal activity.

As far as every day Joes walking around, you really don't need to be strapped.
No you don't, but if people wish to be equipped to protect themselves I feel it is wrong to disallow it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajadeed
How many times has someone with a gun stopped a disaster from occurring?

And how much weapons and ammo do you need to defend yourself? What are you defending yourself from? An invasion?

The automatic weapons, the assault rifles, the thousands and thousands of ammo. That's overboard.

I'd be willing to bet that in most cases where a person is in danger a can of pepper spray or a tazer would be much more effective than a gun.

This isn't the old west where everyone needs a pistol on them at all times. That would just lead to more disasters. Imagine if 4 people were packing in a crowded movie theater and a smoke bomb went off and everyone started shooting...
People getting shot at have a much better chance if they can shoot back.

What does thousands and thousands of ammo have to do with anything was the Colorado shooter carrying that much ammunition?

The best defense against an attacker with a gun is another gun, why don't police just carry pepper spray and tazers if what you say is correct? They shouldn't need guns.





By the way there are places were you can carry a gun with no permit training or permission from anyone needed, Vermont for example.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:51 PM   #40
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Default Re: The Case for Gun Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton
haha that's not a straw man, that would be misconstruing your position then attacking it.

Your position is that the American people couldn't defeat there government. Thus out dating that aspect of the second amendment.

I am using the example of Afghanistan where a group of people less well equipped and numerous than the American people has been successfully surviving in a war against the American military for several years.

If that inferior group can do it successfully why couldn't the American people?

It IS a straw man. Two differing scenarios that have nothing to do with each other. For one, Afghanistan didn't get the full brunt of the US military. We had a war in Iraq that was pretty distracting as well.

I'd wager to say the American military is much more used to the terrain at home than at a place most Americans can't even place on a map, wouldn't you?

I'd also wager that fighting an organized militia/military or whatever the hell it is in Afghanistan is much different than fighting your everyday Joe in Alabama.

It's apples and oranges.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:55 PM   #41
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Default Re: The Case for Gun Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajadeed
It IS a straw man. Two differing scenarios that have nothing to do with each other. For one, Afghanistan didn't get the full brunt of the US military. We had a war in Iraq that was pretty distracting as well.

I'd wager to say the American military is much more used to the terrain at home than at a place most Americans can't even place on a map, wouldn't you?

I'd also wager that fighting an organized militia/military or whatever the hell it is in Afghanistan is much different than fighting your everyday Joe in Alabama.

It's apples and oranges.

No, I'm not misconstruing your position. Again the Afghans are less numerous less organized and less well equipped than Americans, you're honestly telling me you think the modern American military is unable to successfully understand the terrain of place they have been fighting in for 10(ish) years but is capable of defeating the most heavily armed population on the planet?
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:57 PM   #42
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Default Re: The Case for Gun Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton
No you don't, but if people wish to be equipped to protect themselves I feel it is wrong to disallow it.

Depends on where they are and what they want to carry around.

Quote:
People getting shot at have a much better chance if they can shoot back.

Meh, it depends on the situation. Most experts will tell you that people will freeze in that situation, unless they really have proper training.
Quote:
What does thousands and thousands of ammo have to do with anything was the Colorado shooter carrying that much ammunition?
It should have raised red flags somewhere. Anyone stockpiling ammo and weapons like that in a short amount of time should be called suspicious. That's clearly not something just for "self defense."
Quote:
The best defense against an attacker with a gun is another gun, why don't police just carry pepper spray and tazers if what you say is correct? They shouldn't need guns.

I see you love your straws

Hmm, let me see, maybe the cops need guns because their job is to chase the bad guys with guns? Maybe if we lived in England the cops wouldn't have to carry guns, huh? It would only be special forces then.

America is too far gone down the road of guns to ever get to that point, but there is no reason to have the lax laws we have in many states right now. It's just careless, stupid, and dangerous.
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:00 PM   #43
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Default Re: The Case for Gun Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton
No, I'm not misconstruing your position. Again the Afghans are less numerous less organized and less well equipped than Americans, you're honestly telling me you think the modern American military is unable to successfully understand the terrain of place they have been fighting in for 10(ish) years but is capable of defeating the most heavily armed population on the planet?

Do you understand the history of Afghanistan? Do you know why they are well-armed? It's because the Americans armed them. To defeat another nation.

There's a reason they are well trained and well armed and tough to fight.

You can't honestly believe the people in America have anywhere near the fighting experience and history and training that people there have had. It's just night and day difference.
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:08 PM   #44
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Default Re: The Case for Gun Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajadeed
And @ whoever was comparing prohibition and marijuana to guns.

You can make your own moonshine and grow your own weed. Good luck on building a weapon from scratch on your own

The solution isn't to outlaw guns, that ship has sailed. It is impossible to do that. The solution is simple. There are ways to regulate guns and ammo and the such. You shouldn't be able to buy the amount of weapons and ammo the dude in Colorado bought without someone somewhere asking questions.

The biggest obstacle to all of this is the NRA.

Great plan dude. Great fucking plan. That will totally solve our problems.

Again, let me know when criminals follow laws.
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:09 PM   #45
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Default Re: The Case for Gun Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajadeed
I see you love your straws

This is the last time I'm explaining this to you, I have made no straw mans your position has been perfectly understood and I have consistently focused on it. Have you never had a discussion were someone used metaphors and similar situations to explain something to you before?

If you say a rock will not fall after being thrown in the air, then I say no look at this similar situation where a piece of wood is thrown in the air then falls, I have not straw manned your argument about the rock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajadeed
Do you understand the history of Afghanistan? Do you know why they are well-armed? It's because the Americans armed them. To defeat another nation.

There's a reason they are well trained and well armed and tough to fight.

You can't honestly believe the people in America have anywhere near the fighting experience and history and training that people there have had. It's just night and day difference.

There are probably more military veterans in America than there are Afghan insurgents, the American people are also more heavily armed, that is a fact.

There are also over 300 million Americans. How many Afghans are there?
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