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Old 08-22-2012, 11:37 AM   #46
tmacattack33
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Default Re: Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan (who isn't even the most skilled player ever)

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Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
Lebron clearly is not as skilled as Jordan. Just like Shaq was not as skilled as Hakeem. Doesn't make either better or worse than the other.

Exactly.

I really have no clue why people even care about this stuff.

There will never be a game where people's "non-skills" (all the abilities that you consider not to be skills...whether that's athleticism and size or whatever) are going to magically be stripped away from them.
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Old 08-22-2012, 12:00 PM   #47
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Default Re: Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan (who isn't even the most skilled player ever)

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Originally Posted by tmacattack33
Also, I'd like to point out the ridiculousness of your scoring "portability" claims. You have absolutely no evidence to support that claim.

We have seen Lebron score 30 ppg as the main man on a team which surrounded him with role players, and we've also seen him put up 30 ppg alongside two other star offensive players.

(Also, we never even saw Jordan as a 30 ppg scorer on another team. This doesn't matter as much as the above point about Lebron though, since Jordan likely would have been a 30 ppg scorer no matter what team he was on).

So, wtf are you talking about?

Really? Because I could have swore Lebron has averaged 26.9 ppg since joining Miami...

And yes, Jordan's scoring is more portable simply b ecause he was vastly more skilled as a scorer, especially off the ball, in the post, and as a shooter. This is not even arguable. Those skills would allow him to fit in to more team contexts than Lebron scoring-wise. Lebron in the triangle doesn't average > 26 ppg imo because he wouldn't have the ball in his hands nearly as much.
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Old 08-22-2012, 12:09 PM   #48
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Default Re: Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan (who isn't even the most skilled player ever)

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Originally Posted by tmacattack33
MJ was an average passer.

Wow thats idiotic.
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Old 08-22-2012, 12:12 PM   #49
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Default Re: Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan (who isn't even the most skilled player ever)

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Originally Posted by tmacattack33
Exactly.

I really have no clue why people even care about this stuff.

There will never be a game where people's "non-skills" (all the abilities that you consider not to be skills...whether that's athleticism and size or whatever) are going to magically be stripped away from them.

why are lebron-stans going off on a digression? The thread clearly states a comparison in their skill levels not who's a better overall player.
talk about insecurities.
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Old 08-22-2012, 12:53 PM   #50
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Default Re: Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan (who isn't even the most skilled player ever)

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Originally Posted by riseagainst
why are lebron-stans going off on a digression? The thread clearly states a comparison in their skill levels not who's a better overall player.
talk about insecurities.

When I said it doesn't matter who the more skilled player is, I wasn't even talking or thinking about Lebron.

It just doesn't matter, so I made a post stating that it doesn't matter.
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Old 08-22-2012, 12:56 PM   #51
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Default Re: Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan (who isn't even the most skilled player ever)

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Originally Posted by guy
Wow thats idiotic.

Not really.

What's idiotic is thinking that one person would be great at all aspects of something. MJ had a 9.5 or 10 ability in a lot of things, passing just wasn't one of them.
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:17 PM   #52
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Default Re: Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan (who isn't even the most skilled player ever)

nope not really as skilled as jordan.....

one of the best players i've seen for sure, but definitely not the most skilled....
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:19 PM   #53
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Default Re: Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan (who isn't even the most skilled player ever)

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Originally Posted by OldSchoolBBall
Lebron in the triangle doesn't average > 26 ppg imo because he wouldn't have the ball in his hands nearly as much.

This is preposterous. LeBron has averaged over 26 ppg on awesome efficiency the last 2 seasons while playing alongside another ball-dominant guard(Wade) and an All Star PF. All this under an offensively challenged coach without ever being remotely ball dominant. He has a career average of 27.6 ppg. He won't suddenly stop scoring at his usual level just because he's in an offense that requires more ball and player movement than your average team. Players adjust or heck, just look at Kobe, he was as ball dominant as any non PG in the league under Phil from 09-11. There's no rule that a scorer has to play like MJ in order to be a high scorer in the triangle.
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:20 PM   #54
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Default Re: Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan (who isn't even the most skilled player ever)

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Originally Posted by tmacattack33
Not really.

What's idiotic is thinking that one person would be great at all aspects of something. MJ had a 9.5 or 10 ability in a lot of things, passing just wasn't one of them.

AVERAGE? An average passer is Kevin Durant or Andre Iguadola. Jordan was worlds better then them in passing. Even if you are going by assist numbers, which is a flawed way anyway, he clearly wasn't average.

What's idiotic about that if its entirely possible? Overall, I wouldn't say he was great at everything cause he wasn't great at rebounding, but for his position he definitely was. And he's not the only player I'd put in that category.
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:32 PM   #55
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Default Re: Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan (who isn't even the most skilled player ever)

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Originally Posted by OldSchoolBBall
Lebron averages one more rebound than Jordan (and far fewer offensive boards, which are the more valuable and difficult boards to get) despite being 2+" taller, 40-60 pounds heavier,
So why doesn't Jordan get more assist then??? One rebound per game isn't that small: Lebron gets one less basket per game and Lebron doesn't really try to score with most of his energy and takes like three less shots per game than Jordan. Scoring then, was a whole lot easier than now, too. I will concede that Jordan was the better scorer. But when Lebron rebounds more and averages double digits in playoff runs and while guarding the greatest shooter in the game, he should get props.

Jordan is GOAT for sure but he isn't one size fits all for all GOAT questions. It gets crazy after awhile. Jordan wasn't an elite passer or rebounder. He was very skilled and fundamental in those areas but nobody cares about that if it can't be applied: Nobody would talk about Dirk being a skilled shooter if he misses.

Quote:
This is a joke. Again, Lebron may be a MARGINALLY better passer, but that's about it. The magnitude of Lebron's advantages at rebounding and passing is nothing next to the gulf that exists between them as scorers, especially when taking into account portability of scoring skills. Lebron is many team contexts would NOT be a 27+ ppg scorer. Prime Jordan ('90 onward) would be a 28+ ppg scorer in ANY team context. Jordan is also clearly the better defender - don't let Lebron's defensive hype fool you.
Lebron has way too many ocassions where he scored 20 points in the first half and then just set his teammates up in the second. If Lebron set out to score like Jordan did he would average 29 ppg in any setting/context. He just has a different set of priorities based on his skill set and options. Scottie could have scored more and should have been scoring more. When Scottie lead his team in every category Jordan came back on the team and disrupted Scottie's flow (knocked off 4 ppg on his scoring) and took over a little too much. His passing game was a little off, perhaps due to the layoff, but he wasn't always balanced. That's another skill that Lebron was just better at. Lebron has the best balance of scoring and integrating others the league has seen. Certainly this doesn't make him better than Jordan. Jordan had very few flaws and was remarkable in that regards.
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:45 PM   #56
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Default Re: Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan (who isn't even the most skilled player ever)

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Originally Posted by Indian guy
This is preposterous. LeBron has averaged over 26 ppg on awesome efficiency the last 2 seasons while playing alongside another ball-dominant guard(Wade) and an All Star PF. All this under an offensively challenged coach without ever being remotely ball dominant.

You're going to try and tell me that he's not more ball dominant than Jordan was on the '91-'93 Bulls and especially the '96-'98 Bulls? Come on...

Quote:
He has a career average of 27.6 ppg. He won't suddenly stop scoring at his usual level just because he's in an offense that requires more ball and player movement than your average team. Players adjust or heck, just look at Kobe, he was as ball dominant as any non PG in the league under Phil from 09-11. There's no rule that a scorer has to play like MJ in order to be a high scorer in the triangle.

A couple of things:

- Kobe took a lot of shots, but wasn't as ball dominant in '09-'11 as Lebron is even in Miami. Shot numbers and ball dominance are different things. I'm talking about the amount of time a player has the ball in their hands per possession on average.

- Kobe was able to be more ball dominant than Jordan and still have success in the triangle for two reasons: 1) They didn't really run the triangle the way the Bulls did (the Kobe/Gasol P&R was much more prevalent than any P&R or non-triangle play was for Chicago); and 2) his team was constructed differently and didn't have Pippen, whose effectiveness would be neutralized somewhat by a player who was more ball dominant than Jordan (i.e., Pippen would be less effective alongside Kobe than with Jordan, and especially alongside Lebron).

And yes, if you ask Lebron to play off the ball as much as MJ did, he would not average >27 ppg (perhaps 26 was a tad low).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PointGuard
So why doesn't Jordan get more assist then??? One rebound per game isn't that small

Jordan didn't get more assists because he was playing in an equal opportunity offense, playing off the ball a ton more than Lebron, and was playing alongside another 5.5-7.0 apg player who handled the ball as much or more than he did. Even if you merely removed Pippen from those teams, Jordan's apg would jump to ~7 per game, never mind if you made the other stylistic changes I noted (team offense, personal playing style, ball dominance etc.). That's why Lebron's apg dropped from 8.6 the last year in Cleveland to 7.0 and 6.2 ast the last two years in Miami - and notice how Wade's ast/gm have decreased with Lebron's arrival also, down from 6.5-7.5 per season to just 4.6 with Lebron. That's because Lebron's ball dominance takes away from Wade's own ball dominance. Now how many apg would Lebron average playing in the triangle and while allowing a guy like Pippen to handle the ball and average 6+ apg? Definitely not what he's averaging even in Miami. He'd average around 6 apg imo, which is basically in line with MJ. Those Bulls also had two other ~4 apg players along with MJ/Pippen, to drive that point home.

And yes, one rebound per game is a very small thing when you consider the fact that Lebron is 2+" taller, 40-60 pounder heavier, has played with poorer rebounders than Jordan did, and is playing against much smaller and weaker front lines (the era of the pansy stretch 4 and a dearth of true centers). Hence why I believe that Jordan is the more SKILLED rebounder - because my eyes can SEE that.

Last edited by OldSchoolBBall : 08-22-2012 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:54 PM   #57
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Default Re: Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan (who isn't even the most skilled player ever)

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Originally Posted by guy
AVERAGE? An average passer is Kevin Durant or Andre Iguadola. Jordan was worlds better then them in passing. Even if you are going by assist numbers, which is a flawed way anyway, he clearly wasn't average.

What's idiotic about that if its entirely possible? Overall, I wouldn't say he was great at everything cause he wasn't great at rebounding, but for his position he definitely was. And he's not the only player I'd put in that category.
'

I said it was idiotic because you said what I said was idiotic. LOL.

Certainly, I guess it's possible for someone to be great at everything, but it'd be ridiculously rare.


And Igoudala is a great passer (probably in the top 90th percentile of passers in the league). He's been called a poor man's version of Lebron. Philly hasn't been in the spot light since the Iverson days though, so it's fine if you didn't recognize his great passing skills. You probably don't see him play much and it's not your fault.
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Old 08-22-2012, 02:49 PM   #58
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Default Re: Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan (who isn't even the most skilled player ever)

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Originally Posted by OldSchoolBBall
You're going to try and tell me that he's not more ball dominant than Jordan was on the '91-'93 Bulls and especially the '96-'98 Bulls? Come on...

I'm not saying that. I'm saying if he could average 27 ppg on 52% shooting the last 2 seasons on an anemically paced team while being surrounded by another ball-dominant Top 5 player(Wade) and an All Star big man, I would say it's ludicrous to say he wouldn't average his usual numbers in a more "equal opportunity offense". Especially if surrounded by the offensive talent MJ had in Chicago, which was inferior core-scoring wise compared to Miami's Big 3.

Quote:
Kobe took a lot of shots, but wasn't as ball dominant in '09-'11 as Lebron is even in Miami.

I completely disagree with this. From about January onwards of 2011, LeBron forgave his ball-dominant style. Partly due to athletic regression and partly to open the game up for his star teammates. Miami was the league's #1 ranked offense during the latter half of the 10-11 season. '10 and '11 Kobe was comfortably more ball-dominant in the triangle than LeBron's been as a Heat.

Quote:
They didn't really run the triangle the way the Bulls did (the Kobe/Gasol P&R was much more prevalent than any P&R or non-triangle play was for Chicago)

Exactly. So why wouldn't the triangle be tweaked to LeBron's strengths if he played in it? You are working under the assumption that every athletic swingnmen would need to play like MJ to score big in the triangle, but it doesn't have to be that way. Phil would tailor the offense to LeBron's style of play.

Quote:
And yes, if you ask Lebron to play off the ball as much as MJ did, he would not average >27 ppg (perhaps 26 was a tad low).

MJ didn't have to play as much off-ball as he did(look at Kobe in the triangle), he just CHOSE to play that way because that was his biggest strength as a basketball player - catching and attacking from the triple threat, be it off hard-dribble pull ups or off catch n shoots. The offense was tailor made for his strengths as a basketball player.

Last edited by Indian guy : 08-22-2012 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 08-22-2012, 03:03 PM   #59
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Default Re: Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan (who isn't even the most skilled player ever)

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Originally Posted by Indian guy
I'm not saying that. I'm saying if he could average 27 ppg on 52% shooting the last 2 seasons on an anemically paced team while being surrounded by another ball-dominant Top 5 player(Wade) and an All Star big man, I would say it's ludicrous to say he wouldn't average his usual numbers in a more "equal opportunity offense". Especially if surrounded by the offensive talent MJ had in Chicago, which was inferior core-scoring wise compared to Miami's Big 3.



I completely disagree with this. From about January onwards of 2011, LeBron forgave his ball-dominant style. Partly due to athletic regression and partly to open the game up for his star teammates. Miami was the league's #1 ranked offense during the latter half of the 10-11 season. '10 and '11 Kobe was comfortably more ball-dominant in the triangle than LeBron's been as a Heat.



Exactly. So why wouldn't the triangle be tweaked to LeBron's strengths if he played in it? You are working under the assumption that every athletic swingnmen would need to play like MJ to score big in the triangle, but it doesn't have to be that way. Phil would tailor the offense to LeBron's style of play.



MJ didn't have to play as much off-ball as he did(look at Kobe in the triangle), he just CHOSE to play that way because that was his biggest strength as a basketball player - catching and attacking from the triple threat, be it off hard-dribble pull ups or off catch n shoots. The offense was tailor made for his strengths as a basketball player.
Wade hasn't been ball dominant the last two seasons Lebron has kept his game pretty much the same. Wade and Bosh are the ones that have changed their games to help Lebron be more comfortable
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Old 08-22-2012, 03:05 PM   #60
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Default Re: Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan (who isn't even the most skilled player ever)

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Originally Posted by Ikill
Wade hasn't been ball dominant the last two seasons Lebron has kept his game pretty much the same. Wade and Bosh are the ones that have changed their games to help Lebron be more comfortable

Yep. Even Wade said he deferred to Lebron, or welcomed being his sidekick.
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