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Old 08-22-2012, 02:17 AM   #16
MTing
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Default Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

When it comes to VC, his heart always comes into the conversation. We all know if he had the 'killer instinct' he could have been the best in the league but he didnt. Hes shown signs of it at times but never had that 'I will destory you' mentality Kobe has every night. Some nights he goes off for 40, other nights he stayed outside the arc and launched 3's all game. Vince has been and will always be my favorite player of all time but the 'what if' just frustrates me (and a lot of his fans).

Aside from that he is one of the nicer players in the league (which is why he has no problem being in the back seat) and will never be forgotten as THE best dunker of all time.
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Old 08-22-2012, 02:27 AM   #17
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Default Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

Hasn't he kinda always had a role players mindset with a star player's skillet though?

I've always looked at Paul Pierce & Vince Carter as mirror opposites; Carter had all the tools in the world, but looked for everyway not to use them. He lacked any type of loyalty or honor to his team, his employer or himself. At times, it was almost like he was ashamed of how talented he was. He essentially mentions this in an interview about "The Dunk". He talks about how losing a close relative caused him to just let loose that summer, arguably his most impressive stretch of basketball ever.

Pierce on the other hand didn't have the talent that Carter had, but he had the motor & the emotion. Could you imagine what would have happened if Raptors era Vince got stabbed? He would have been out for the season! Their difference is mindsets is ultimately why Carter is accepting a lesser role while Pierce is a key cog to a upper level playoff team.
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Old 08-22-2012, 04:02 AM   #18
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Default Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

Ha ha most exiting superstar. I guess so... But like seriously, should the word gracefully be used? Maybe there's nothing graceful in floating to being just a role player... I say it's more of a shame.
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:20 AM   #19
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Default Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by andgar923
People say I 'hate' Kobe. That is false. He frustrates me.

You wanna know who I 'hate'?

VINCE CARTER

And I guess this is why.

Him accepting his new role is nothing new. He's always been a conformist. Not a revelation to anybody that's watched basketball.

You know what I LOVE and respect about Bean?

His stubbornness to NOT conform. Sure, he has a desire and maniacal NEED to be the best, that is what drives him, what makes him great. What made MJ, Bird, Magic and others great.

Vince Carter had the gifts to be the GOAT, he had the gifts to blow Kobe out of the water, but he didn't have the drive, he conformed. Not to say he was a bad player or that he didn't improve. But he never had the same desire that MJ and Kobe had/have.

So I'm not surprised that he's accepted his role so 'gracefully'.

Look at the desire that Iverson has. He's not willing to conform, we may write them off as not letting go, but I'd rather see somebody with the passion to not let go, then somebody just go 'accept' it.

Fck that!!!! accepting is for punk p*ssy quitters with not heart or drive.

That last line about accepting is for punk p*ssy quitters with no heart or drive is very hypocritical of you...

Quote:
I wanted to play basketball.... tried out my soph year but didn't make it, although I had a very solid tryout. I figured the coaches were racially biased (I'm Mexican) so I didn't bother trying out again.

...

Too bad I was shy, skinny, short, dark and full of pimples

Blaming coaches for being racist because you didn't make the team, what a great way of deflecting blame! Truth is the vast majority coaches don't give a shit about where people are from, they want players that make their team the best it can be. You where skinny and short to begin with, but you thought you had a "very solid try out" so just figure the coaches of being racist because of that, I'm sorry but that's pretty stupid.

But back to the subject I just wanted to point out it's stupid calling other guys p*ussy punk quitters when you are one yourself.

Last edited by ZenMaster : 08-22-2012 at 05:23 AM.
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:24 AM   #20
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Default Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

There's nothing graceful about his fall...

Someone who fits your description would be Ray Allen.
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Old 08-22-2012, 09:50 AM   #21
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Default Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTing
When it comes to VC, his heart always comes into the conversation. We all know if he had the 'killer instinct' he could have been the best in the league but he didnt. Hes shown signs of it at times but never had that 'I will destory you' mentality Kobe has every night. Some nights he goes off for 40, other nights he stayed outside the arc and launched 3's all game. Vince has been and will always be my favorite player of all time but the 'what if' just frustrates me (and a lot of his fans).

Aside from that he is one of the nicer players in the league (which is why he has no problem being in the back seat) and will never be forgotten as THE best dunker of all time.
I think I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum from a lot of fans of his and a lot of fans of the league. I've never really thought "what if" with Vince Carter. Mostly, I just thought about "what is" and "what was". He wasn't Chris Washburn, he wasn't James White, and he wasn't Marvin Williams. He was a guy who was initially an athlete first in college who was able to turn himself into a regular 25, 6 and 5 guy in the best professional league in the world. That's not really something I can turn around and say, "Geez, what a waste" about. To me, becoming one of the best 20 players in the world is the antithesis of waste.

I've always felt comparing players to the small select few who had diabolical competition disorders wasn't always the best way of judging that player's worth. Vince Carter's brain was different than Michael Jordan's and Kobe Bryant's. The same could be said for 99.9% of every other NBA player (and human) who ever lived. Again, I don't think that should make anyone sad or regretful. Vince Carter was a human being who played the game of basketball because he enjoyed it. He knew it wasn't life or death, but that doesn't mean he didn't want to win and be successful. Winning just wasn't the only thing with him, and I don't think it should have been.

Lastly, I've always kind of wondered when and how it was decided that Vince Carter had the ability to be the best player of all time if only he decided to try. The truth is, I've known a pretty significant amount of basketball players in my life who've had monster verticals and insane athleticism. And you know what? None of them ended up being Vince Carter. What I'm saying is, no one becomes an 8-time NBA All-Star without putting in an insane amount of training and hard work. It is not possible to walk into the type of career Vince had. So with that, I wonder, how do we know Carter did not achieve close to his full potential? Why do we assume he could have automatically equaled the greatest players of all-time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAckley1
Hasn't he kinda always had a role players mindset with a star player's skillet though?

I've always looked at Paul Pierce & Vince Carter as mirror opposites; Carter had all the tools in the world, but looked for everyway not to use them. He lacked any type of loyalty or honor to his team, his employer or himself. At times, it was almost like he was ashamed of how talented he was. He essentially mentions this in an interview about "The Dunk". He talks about how losing a close relative caused him to just let loose that summer, arguably his most impressive stretch of basketball ever.

Pierce on the other hand didn't have the talent that Carter had, but he had the motor & the emotion. Could you imagine what would have happened if Raptors era Vince got stabbed? He would have been out for the season! Their difference is mindsets is ultimately why Carter is accepting a lesser role while Pierce is a key cog to a upper level playoff team.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by saying he "lacked any type of loyalty or honor to his team, his employers, or himself". He made a terrible decision in Toronto to basically force himself out of the franchise once his team began hoarding mediocre talent, and I can definitely interpret that action as definitively being a lack of loyalty, but I'm not sure if that means he was disloyal at every other point of his career and I'm not sure how that means he wasn't loyal to himself.

Further, I must say, I'm not sure we could fault a person as a basketball player simply because we presume they may have missed a season if they were hypothetically repeatedly and literally stabbed in the back, neck and face. Paul Pierce is tough, but he's also extremely lucky. From what I understand, folks don't usually emerge from being stabbed 11 times by being in fair condition. A lot of criticisms of Carter could be made, but I feel the "Geez, I bet he'd be injured if he were stabbed 11 times" argument does not hold much merit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kNIOKAS
Ha ha most exiting superstar. I guess so... But like seriously, should the word gracefully be used? Maybe there's nothing graceful in floating to being just a role player... I say it's more of a shame.
After 12 solid years in the NBA (and at least 10 great ones), I don't think there's any shame in acknowledging that you're 35 years old and no longer capable of playing as if you were 26. If anything, someone who understands their regression is much less shameful (or perhaps embarrassing is the right word) than someone who's that age, no longer highly skilled, but is too proud to recognize it.

As someone else mentioned in this thread, Vince Carter reminds me a little of David Robinson in this regard. Both players seemed readily able to acknowledge their decline, accept it, and look for the best and most effective way they could then serve their team. In Robinson's case, that meant taking a huge back seat to Tim Duncan, concentrating more on rebounding and defense. In Carter's case, that meant just trying to fill in the blanks whereever he could in Dallas.

Of course, everything I say is incredibly biased because I'm a huge fan of both Carter and Robinson. But honestly, I truly do prefer seeing former stars age gracefully as opposed to losing skill but still demanding shots until the bitter end.

Last edited by Rake2204 : 08-22-2012 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 08-22-2012, 09:55 AM   #22
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Default Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

I agree. Vince Carter is great in the role he is in for Dallas. He would on occasion show flashes of Vinsanity but he knows that is gone, he knows his role.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:54 AM   #23
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Default Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

As someone who watched the vast majority of VC's Toronto and NJ years, it was so crazy to see what he could do the occasional times he was motivated. He was great in NJ right after he got traded there. And then he faded as time went on because he didn't have something to prove anymore. VC used to be so frustrating to me when he was in Toronto. Everything was so effortless to him. He was even drawing MJ comparisons at the time. But as was said earlier in this thread, he never showed that maniacal desire to win that drives most champions. He liked to have fun, put on a show, and if we won? Great that's more fun, if we didn't? No big deal. He could've done and been so much more than what he is.
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:34 AM   #24
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Default Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenMaster
That last line about accepting is for punk p*ssy quitters with no heart or drive is very hypocritical of you...



Blaming coaches for being racist because you didn't make the team, what a great way of deflecting blame! Truth is the vast majority coaches don't give a shit about where people are from, they want players that make their team the best it can be. You where skinny and short to begin with, but you thought you had a "very solid try out" so just figure the coaches of being racist because of that, I'm sorry but that's pretty stupid.

But back to the subject I just wanted to point out it's stupid calling other guys p*ussy punk quitters when you are one yourself.


/this dude
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Old 08-22-2012, 12:52 PM   #25
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Default Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

Anyone who admits to quitting or not giving their all lacks loyalty to themselves above anyone else.
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:00 PM   #26
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Default Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

Define "gracefully".
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:02 PM   #27
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Default Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAckley1
Anyone who admits to quitting or not giving their all lacks loyalty to themselves above anyone else.
I mean this honestly, but what do you mean they lack loyalty to themselves? There's no getting around the fact that Vince Carter made a very poor decision, but I'm not sure how it equates out to him not having loyalty to himself.
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:06 PM   #28
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Default Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenMaster
Truth is the vast majority coaches don't give a shit about where people are from, they want players that make their team the best it can be.

I don't know about that actually. I have seen coaches that clearly play favorites and cut good players just so a family friend could make the team. Not to mention the asshole parents that basically blackmail the coach.
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:42 PM   #29
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Default Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

Carter being content as a role player just epitomizes his whole career. He had all the talent in the world and just didn't want "it" enough.
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:48 PM   #30
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Default Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

agree with the guy who mentioned David Robinson

from MVP to secondary or third-tary(eheheeh) player seemlessly....

although in his case...it was because a much better and more clutch player supplanted him ........as much as it was erosion of skills
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