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Old 08-22-2012, 07:05 PM   #31
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Default Re: What's with this myth that Shaq didn't have a long period of time as a superstar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odinn
As for being one of the best players in the L, Kobe is on 12. Not 14. He wasn't even top 10 player in the L in 1999-00 and in 2000-01 he became top 5 arguably top 3. 2000-01 season was Kobe's break-out season. His first 2 seasons not good enough. If Kobe reaches 14, it will be a little bit more valuable compared to Shaq coz of age difference. Kobe will be at his 35 and Shaq was at his 33 in 2005-06.

See below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackVVaves
Second, those two first years as a starter you are referring to, 1998-1999 and 1999-2000, Kobe averaged 22, 6, and 5 on 47% FG shooting. You are right, nothing close to his standards as a scorer, but still Top 12 in scoring in the league those years. And on better efficiency than any guard before him in each year's scoring list.

So yea. Kobe wasn't Kobe yet. But he was still better than "average" or good.


If you're going to include Shaq's 2005-2006 season, where he averaged 20, 9, and 2, then not sure why Kobe's 1999-2000 season, where he averaged 23, 6, and 5, wouldn't count in his longevity barometer.

Can you provide a reason why it wouldn't?
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Old 08-22-2012, 09:49 PM   #32
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Default Re: What's with this myth that Shaq didn't have a long period of time as a superstar?

You're right RRR3, but I'd expect a Randy Rhoads fan to be intelligent.

Shaq has 12 seasons as a clear top 5 player('94-'05). How many players can you name with more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennethgriffin
shaq was dumb and got abused in the 90's by the rockets, jazz and spurs... rodman made him his b*tch too

he didnt figure it out until 2000... then by 2004 it was over

numbers lie. they dont show how flawed shaq was

before 2000 the guy had no foot work and 1 go to move

What a clown. Shaq's scoring and footwork were pretty much complete by '98, which is really when he entered his prime. The improvements he made in 2000 had more to do with defense, passing and leadership. I'd say Shaq's one-handed turnaround was a little better in the 3peat than '98, and his footwork may have been just a hair better, but I might just be getting picky.

By '95, Shaq had a lot of the skills he'd end up developing, and that season, he was the second best player behind only Hakeem, who almost everyone would have been second to at that point.

'95 Shaq had already become a very good passer, his jump hook was solid and his footwork had become among the best in the league at the center position. He improved all of those things of course, and while his turnaround one-handed jumper was something he went to occasionally, it wasn't a big part of his game unlike his Laker days. But he was not a raw player by that point, he was only raw during his first 2 seasons.

Shaq didn't get "abused" by the Rockets. He just got outplayed by a better player, but held his own unlike the other top centers Robinson and Ewing when they had playoff series vs Dream.

Shaq played poorly vs the Jazz in '97 by his standards, but '98? Shaq was amazing in the '98 series vs Utah, his team just completely choked. Shaq averaged 32 ppg on 56% in the series including 30+ in every game except game 1, and his games 3 and 4 were unbelievable. He was scoring every basket for the Lakers down the stretch in game 4 to keep them in it.

Everyone in the Lakers rotation except for Shaq and Eddie Jones shot under 40% in that series, and Jones only shot 41%.

He did play poorly vs the Spurs in '99, though.

So you have 2 poor series that he lost in....you don't think I can name that many for Kobe? You really want to go this route?

Rodman made Shaq his bitch? He only guarded him for short stretches, maybe a few possessions here or there. He did a surprisingly good job, I'll give him that, but your agenda is making you say flat out ridiculous things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackVVaves
See below:



If you're going to include Shaq's 2005-2006 season, where he averaged 20, 9, and 2, then not sure why Kobe's 1999-2000 season, where he averaged 23, 6, and 5, wouldn't count in his longevity barometer.

Can you provide a reason why it wouldn't?

Valid point, in my opinion, both were borderline top 10 players in these particular seasons, although I'd say Shaq was a bigger impact player in 2006 than Kobe was in 2000. A lot of that had to do with what a huge mismatch Shaq still was in '06, the fact that he converted his shots at a ridiculous %, and to put things into perspective, both were 2nd options, but the 2000 Lakers went 12-3 when Kobe didn't play and their best player(Shaq) did, while the '06 Heat went just 10-11 when Shaq didn't play and their best player(Wade) did. And Shaq had a much better back up at his position than Kobe did to fill in. Alonzo Mourning averaged 12/9 with 4 bpg in the games he started during the '06 season filling in for Shaq. While 2000 Kobe was backed up by players who wouldn't crack a lot of team's rotations which makes the difference in how these particular teams fared in these stretches even more significant.

Also, another reason I'd take '06 Shaq over '00 Kobe is that Shaq was a savvy veteran who knew how to win, while as good as Kobe was, he still had a habit of forcing things such as 3 on 1 breaks, going out of the offense too much to go 1 on 1 and still learning how to be a consistent playmaker. Granted, the positives far outweighed the negatives with Kobe because Kobe was arguably the best defensive guard in the league that year, while most of his game wasn't up to his prime level, he actually had his best and most committed defensive season that year. Plus, Kobe was arguably the most skilled and talented perimeter scorer, a skilled passer and talented playmaker who could make things happen despite the previous criticism and one of the better rebounding guards.

And in fairness, '06 Shaq did have his flaws too such as his disgusting free throw shooting, the mobility could be exploited more defensively and it also made him much morefoul prone than when he was young, and he seemed to have lost some stamina at 34 years old.

I just had to point out these flaws so I didn't seem like I was hiding something, I stand by my selection of '06 Shaq over '00 Kobe for the reasons stated earlier, but I will still tell the whole story.

But for the purposes of longevity, I think if you use 1 season, you use both of them because I think they're in the same tier based on the fact that you could argue each player was a superstar/elite player, or a top 10 player in these seasons, but it's debatable whether they were either.

Last edited by ShaqAttack3234 : 08-22-2012 at 10:04 PM.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:16 PM   #33
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Default Re: What's with this myth that Shaq didn't have a long period of time as a superstar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
You're right RRR3, but I'd expect a Randy Rhoads fan to be intelligent.

Shaq has 12 seasons as a clear top 5 player('94-'05). How many players can you name with more?



What a clown. Shaq's scoring and footwork were pretty much complete by '98, which is really when he entered his prime. The improvements he made in 2000 had more to do with defense, passing and leadership. I'd say Shaq's one-handed turnaround was a little better in the 3peat than '98, and his footwork may have been just a hair better, but I might just be getting picky.

By '95, Shaq had a lot of the skills he'd end up developing, and that season, he was the second best player behind only Hakeem, who almost everyone would have been second to at that point.

'95 Shaq had already become a very good passer, his jump hook was solid and his footwork had become among the best in the league at the center position. He improved all of those things of course, and while his turnaround one-handed jumper was something he went to occasionally, it wasn't a big part of his game unlike his Laker days. But he was not a raw player by that point, he was only raw during his first 2 seasons.

Shaq didn't get "abused" by the Rockets. He just got outplayed by a better player, but held his own unlike the other top centers Robinson and Ewing when they had playoff series vs Dream.

Shaq played poorly vs the Jazz in '97 by his standards, but '98? Shaq was amazing in the '98 series vs Utah, his team just completely choked. Shaq averaged 32 ppg on 56% in the series including 30+ in every game except game 1, and his games 3 and 4 were unbelievable. He was scoring every basket for the Lakers down the stretch in game 4 to keep them in it.

Everyone in the Lakers rotation except for Shaq and Eddie Jones shot under 40% in that series, and Jones only shot 41%.

He did play poorly vs the Spurs in '99, though.

So you have 2 poor series that he lost in....you don't think I can name that many for Kobe? You really want to go this route?

Rodman made Shaq his bitch? He only guarded him for short stretches, maybe a few possessions here or there. He did a surprisingly good job, I'll give him that, but your agenda is making you say flat out ridiculous things.




Valid point, in my opinion, both were borderline top 10 players in these particular seasons, although I'd say Shaq was a bigger impact player in 2006 than Kobe was in 2000. A lot of that had to do with what a huge mismatch Shaq still was in '06, the fact that he converted his shots at a ridiculous %, and to put things into perspective, both were 2nd options, but the 2000 Lakers went 12-3 when Kobe didn't play and their best player(Shaq) did, while the '06 Heat went just 10-11 when Shaq didn't play and their best player(Wade) did. And Shaq had a much better back up at his position than Kobe did to fill in. Alonzo Mourning averaged 12/9 with 4 bpg in the games he started during the '06 season filling in for Shaq. While 2000 Kobe was backed up by players who wouldn't crack a lot of team's rotations which makes the difference in how these particular teams fared in these stretches even more significant.

Also, another reason I'd take '06 Shaq over '00 Kobe is that Shaq was a savvy veteran who knew how to win, while as good as Kobe was, he still had a habit of forcing things such as 3 on 1 breaks, going out of the offense too much to go 1 on 1 and still learning how to be a consistent playmaker. Granted, the positives far outweighed the negatives with Kobe because Kobe was arguably the best defensive guard in the league that year, while most of his game wasn't up to his prime level, he actually had his best and most committed defensive season that year. Plus, Kobe was arguably the most skilled and talented perimeter scorer, a skilled passer and talented playmaker who could make things happen despite the previous criticism and one of the better rebounding guards.

And in fairness, '06 Shaq did have his flaws too such as his disgusting free throw shooting, the mobility could be exploited more defensively and it also made him much morefoul prone than when he was young, and he seemed to have lost some stamina at 34 years old.

I just had to point out these flaws so I didn't seem like I was hiding something, I stand by my selection of '06 Shaq over '00 Kobe for the reasons stated earlier, but I will still tell the whole story.

But for the purposes of longevity, I think if you use 1 season, you use both of them because I think they're in the same tier based on the fact that you could argue each player was a superstar/elite player, or a top 10 player in these seasons, but it's debatable whether they were either.

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Old 08-22-2012, 10:27 PM   #34
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Default Re: What's with this myth that Shaq didn't have a long period of time as a superstar?

There wasn't a myth to begin with.

If there was a question about it, it was by trolls. It looks like they did their job.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:37 PM   #35
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Default Re: What's with this myth that Shaq didn't have a long period of time as a superstar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennethgriffin
shaq was dumb and got abused in the 90's by the rockets, jazz and spurs... rodman made him his b*tch too

he didnt figure it out until 2000... then by 2004 it was over

numbers lie. they dont show how flawed shaq was

before 2000 the guy had no foot work and 1 go to move
I'm not sure if we were watching the same games but Shaq was far from being dominated by the Rockets. Knowing Kobe stans you were probably like 4 years old then so I wouldn't expect you to know.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:57 PM   #36
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Default Re: What's with this myth that Shaq didn't have a long period of time as a superstar?

Shaq was dominant since his rookie season, what else is new? Thought everyone knew this.
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:05 PM   #37
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Default Re: What's with this myth that Shaq didn't have a long period of time as a superstar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRR3


After getting The Live album "Tribute" as a kid, I decided I wanted to play guitar. I didn't start until years later, but it was because of that album that I got the idea. Eventually, I got that same polka dot v from that picture custom built by the same guy who built Randy's back in '79.
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:07 PM   #38
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Default Re: What's with this myth that Shaq didn't have a long period of time as a superstar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
After getting The Live album "Tribute" as a kid, I decided I wanted to play guitar. It didn't start until years later, but it was because of that album that I got the idea. Eventually, I got that same polka dot v from that picture custom built by the same guy who built Randy's back in '79.
Awesome. I tried to play guitar a little while ago and RR was the reason why. I plan to start again hopefully, although even though RR is my favorite guitarist (heck, he's my favorite musician actually), I think my style will probably be more like Slash (my 2nd favorite guitarist). Not sure why, maybe because I have the Slash hair
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:36 PM   #39
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Default Re: What's with this myth that Shaq didn't have a long period of time as a superstar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRR3
Awesome. I tried to play guitar a little while ago and RR was the reason why. I plan to start again hopefully, although even though RR is my favorite guitarist (heck, he's my favorite musician actually), I think my style will probably be more like Slash (my 2nd favorite guitarist).

Well, I'll be happy to give you some tips, especially if you want to learn how to play in a hard rock/heavy metal style. I was planning on recording some RR covers soon, I'll send you them when I do. Might do videos and recordings separately. The video for purposes of the RR guitar being visible, and the recordings because of multiple tracks being available so I can double track the solos, which was one of Randy's trademarks.

Slash was an interesting player, very much a throwback more in the vein of the 70's players, which was nice because even as a fan of those Shrapnel shred players, it got a bit excessive by the late 80's with pretty much every metal guitarist being either an Yngwie clone or a Van Halen clone.

Aside from Randy, my absolute favorite guitarists and influences on my own are George Lynch, Yngwie Malmsteen, Tony MacAlpine and probably Ritchie Blackmore and Alex Skolnick. Plenty of other great players who I like a lot, though,

Quote:
Not sure why, maybe because I have the Slash hair


I actually have hair like RR, and if that wasn't enough I'm probably about the same size. That's why I'm planning on forming a tribute band or maybe joining an existing one on the side. Those make good money.
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:40 PM   #40
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Default Re: What's with this myth that Shaq didn't have a long period of time as a superstar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Well, I'll be happy to give you some tips, especially if you want to learn how to play in a hard rock/heavy metal style. I was planning on recording some RR covers soon, I'll send you them when I do. Might do videos and recordings separately. The video for purposes of the RR guitar being visible, and the recordings because of multiple tracks being available so I can double track the solos, which was one of Randy's trademarks.

Slash was an interesting player, very much a throwback more in the vein of the 70's players, which was nice because even as a fan of those Shrapnel shred players, it got a bit excessive by the late 80's with pretty much every metal guitarist being either an Yngwie clone or a Van Halen clone.

Aside from Randy, my absolute favorite guitarists and influences on my own are George Lynch, Yngwie Malmsteen, Tony MacAlpine and probably Ritchie Blackmore and Alex Skolnick. Plenty of other great players who I like a lot, though,



I actually have hair like RR, and if that wasn't enough I'm probably about the same size. That's why I'm planning on forming a tribute band or maybe joining an existing one on the side. Those make good money.
Yes, RR is trained classically, while Slash is very much inspired by the blues. I know the guitarist he was influenced most by is Joe Perry of Aerosmith, although his favorite guitarist is Jeff Beck. I saw Slash live recently, he sounds a lot more fluid these days (probably because he's not drunk out of his mind lol). Yeah that'd be cool; I'll let you know when I start playing again

Quote:
Shaq didn't get "abused" by the Rockets. He just got outplayed by a better player, but held his own unlike the other top centers Robinson and Ewing when they had playoff series vs Dream.
This reminds me somewhat of this year (not that I saw Hakeem vs. Shaq play each other I'm basing this off what I've heard about it) in that perhaps the 2nd best player in the NBA Durant (Shaq) held his own against the best LeBron (Hakeem) but ultimately lost the battle despite arguably putting up better stats, while other top players at the position-Carmelo, Paul Pierce (Ewing, D-Rob) were severely outplayed by the best-LeBron (Hakeem).

Last edited by RRR3 : 08-22-2012 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:43 PM   #41
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Default Re: What's with this myth that Shaq didn't have a long period of time as a superstar?

This is another one of those threads were the OP fabricates a myth out of thin air because they were bored or want to push an agenda.
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:44 PM   #42
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Default Re: What's with this myth that Shaq didn't have a long period of time as a superstar?

Good to see some fellow guitarists on ISH.

Marty Friedman > All
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:49 PM   #43
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Default Re: What's with this myth that Shaq didn't have a long period of time as a superstar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavincent
Good to see some fellow guitarists on ISH.

Marty Friedman > All
Hendrix and Rhoads are my two picks for the best, although my criteria is heavily influenced by songwriting and what I perceive to be emotion felt through the guitar. Slash is the most badass guitarist IMO though, he may not have the skill of some others (although he's obviously quite skilled) but he makes up for it with his awesomeness.

Slash at his most http://youtu.be/JsyAJXs7C_w?t=23s



BTW are you a fan of Megadeth?
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:52 PM   #44
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Default Re: What's with this myth that Shaq didn't have a long period of time as a superstar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRR3
This reminds me somewhat of this year (not that I saw Hakeem vs. Shaq play each other I'm basing this off what I've heard about it) in that perhaps the 2nd best player in the NBA Durant (Shaq) held his own against the best LeBron (Hakeem) but ultimately lost the battle despite arguably putting up better stats, while other top players at the position-Carmelo, Paul Pierce (Ewing, D-Rob) were severely outplayed by the best-LeBron (Hakeem).

That's what I meant to you in the other thread about "outclassing" and "outplaying".

LeBron "outplayed" Durant, but not to the point where Durant was an afterthought, where as Melo and Pierce did get "outclassed".
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:54 PM   #45
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Default Re: What's with this myth that Shaq didn't have a long period of time as a superstar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
That's what I meant to you in the other thread about "outclassing" and "outplaying".

LeBron "outplayed" Durant, but not to the point where Durant was an afterthought, where as Melo and Pierce did get "outclassed".
IIRC I was trolling a Durant stan but I could be wrong.
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