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Old 10-15-2012, 09:21 PM   #31
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Foley
Jerry is one of the most self-critical people who ever lived, and he loves Kobe like a son. You think he'd ever say something to prop himself up at Kobe's expense?

Magic made the finals nine times in 11 years, IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong); I don't think the argument that he didn't make the finals enough holds water. If you really wanna go there, Kobe's "only" made the finals seven times, and there were a couple of years when he arguably got eliminated too early.

Not a bad argument......but it still doesn't change that Kobe is better.
If I am biased in this matter, I am definitely biased in Magic's favor.....but have to be honest.....Kobe has beat him out. I NEVER thought I'd see the day that I would say that.
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Old 10-16-2012, 05:05 PM   #32
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKLaker
Not a bad argument......but it still doesn't change that Kobe is better.
If I am biased in this matter, I am definitely biased in Magic's favor.....but have to be honest.....Kobe has beat him out. I NEVER thought I'd see the day that I would say that.

I can't believe anyone who has watched the Lakers since 1980 or earlier
wouldn't say Magic is the best....

I do agree that Magic and Kobe are the two at the top of the list. If Magic
had played 5+ more years, and set the assist record, this choice might
be easier... But they both did their whole careers with the Lakers, both
brought ships, but I still think Magic's role was more important... Kobe
started slow and created some turmoil along the way... Just because
he's the second coming of MJ doesn't push him above Magic IMO.
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Old 10-16-2012, 07:53 PM   #33
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Foley
It was also an era where fouls were harder to come by, where people driving into the lane got bodychecked and suffered the occasional broken bone without getting the whistle. It's notable that Kobe really struggled with his shooting and turnovers in the year just prior to the rule banning handchecks on the perimeter--a rule, btw, that was a complete boon to explosive perimeter scorers across the league. You think Logo wouldn't appreciate having people back off an inch or two because they couldn't grab and push him while he was driving past them? With his jumper?

Look, Kobe would be great in any era, but it's fallacious to just assume he'd be that much better in the '70s after you just implied that you can't compare different eras.

According to internet sources, this hand checking rule was implemented 2007 so get back to me on that if its inaccurate. Looking at Kobe's statistics from 2005 until 2008, his numbers have been lurking around the same general neighbor hood of about 30 points, 3-4 turnovers (he handles the ball a lot), and lastly, it is very interesting to me regarding his free throw numbers. Back when hand checking was allowed, Kobe actually had taken more free throw attempts, before the year 2007. After the hand checking rule was implemented, you see the attempts every year decrease. 819 attempted in 2006, and then come 2007, it immediately shot down to the 700's and never went back up. This can be attributed to the zone defense which allows a team to basically hound a player, without it being deemed "illegal defense". Every rule and every era had its trade-offs frank foley. Hand checking allows a guy to beat the crap out of you, but the zone defense allows 3 players on average to hound you.

I did say you can't compare different eras, but I was also speaking about the evolvement of the game. The "moves" are advanced as these new guys come in and find different ways to humiliate defenses, and coaching is also different.
If you put for example, a doctor today, back in time in the 1800's, that doctor would have put all of those types of "treatments" to shame with his advanced knowledge, experience, and technology.



Quote:
Um. Kareem has a strong case for not just having the better career, but being the greatest player of all time.

Don't know why you're focusing on this. Simply a matter of opinion. Magic continued to win without Kareem. Won more championships, therefore to me, his career was more successful. I did not say one negative thing about Kareem. If you ask fans all around the U.S. who is their top ten, I guarantee you not one list would come close to another. This also sounds like you don't think Magic has a run on being greatest of all time. Accomplishing so much in a short career always makes one wonder what "could have" happened.


Quote:
Kobe is unguardable in the sense that he has a ridiculously high skillset and shoots the ball a ton. So, either way, he's gonna get his, but it may not be at high efficiency. His career shooting percentage is barely above the league average. He shot 45% during his 35 ppg season, which is incredible given the difficulty of his shots and the burden he took on every night, but let's not make believe that he was doing whatever he wanted out there. Even though scoring efficiency was higher in the '80's Magic (and Jordan, if you wanna throw him into the discussion) still shot the ball at a level far higher than that of their peers.

When I think unguardable, I think of someone who has many options. If Kobe had one side of the court completely shut down, he has about 4 different backup plans of how he can get the shot off. Someone like Magic Johnson on the other hand, would not shoot if he had no possible alternative to score. Rather he'd wait until the next possession, or simply use his amazing court vision to get someone else to receive the glory, which is a great thing btw. What I am saying is, as a one on one player, Kobe made so many difficult shots over many defenders. It didn't matter if 3 guys were on Kobe. It wasn't ever a guarantee that the 3 defenders would come away successful. There was always that doubt of "I don't think we can stop him". Michael Jordan is the GOAT. Im not including him in this simply because this is a discussion of "Who is the greatest laker of all time".



Quote:
When Kobe was at his apex, he was about as good as anyone who ever lived. But night in, night out? There are a handful of players I'd take over him for continued, consistent excellence, including Magic and Kareem.

I don't think inconsistency is a word that should describe Kobe. Sure he had bad shooting nights. But who nowadays didn't have bad shooting nights? Even with a bad shooting nights, he commanded double teams which created opportunities for others. If he wasn't scoring, he did other things. Look at his bad shooting against the celtics in game 7 of the NBA finals. He came away with 15 rebounds, and that was significant because the team who led in rebounds every game, won the game.


Quote:
Shaq couldn't win without an elite guard, sure, but Kobe couldn't win without an elite center. Pau gets a lot of grief on this site for being soft, but he and Odom (and Drew, to a far lesser extent) made up the best frontcourt in the entire league for a few years.

If Pau Gasol was an elite center/forward, why didn't he lead the grizzlies to any playoff wins? 0-12 his first three tries. He made Kobe a lot better because of how smart he was, but Kobe overall made him the better player. Phil Jackson overall made Pau the better player. They helped him get over his "soft" reputation when needed most. Improved from 14 ppg to 24 ppg in both finals series against the celtics. Drew, like you said, to a far lesser extent. Odom wasn't elite but he was the best asset to have. The point is, Bynum Odom Pau probably don't add up to a Shaquille O'Neal in his prime, which is debatable as well. That being said, Kobe won without Shaq. It was a big deal at the time. It sure as heck shut the media up lol.


Quote:
Magic generated a MFT of discussion earlier in his career. Google "Tragic Johnson" and "Paul Westhead Lakers," and you'll see that it wasn't all ice cream and candy during the '80's. He overcame his fair share of adversity as well.

He probably did, but it wasn't nearly as much as the "drama" that we'd seen guys like Kobe go through.

Quote:
I think everyone is entitled to believe what they want to believe about Kobe, but I don't think enough of us are giving Magic a fair shot. This is just my opinion, but there's a holy trinity of perimeter players (Jordan, Bird, Magic), and a holy trinity of centers (Wilt, Russell, Kareem). To break into either of those groups (again, in my personal opinion), you have to be something really special across the board--passing, rebounding, shooting, winning, defense, efficiency. Kobe's great, but to me, he didn't do enough to break into that group.

Fair enough in regards to the holy trinity of players. Now let me ask you, what did Kobe not do yet?
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:27 PM   #34
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakerfreak
Don't know why you're focusing on this. Simply a matter of opinion. Magic continued to win without Kareem. Won more championships, therefore to me, his career was more successful.
Magic never won another title after Kareem retired
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:35 PM   #35
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

what does "MFT" mean? we're not all teenage girls in here.
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:41 AM   #36
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakerfreak
According to internet sources, this hand checking rule was implemented 2007 so get back to me on that if its inaccurate.

Inaccurate.
http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

Rules were implemented 2004-2005. His shooting percentage, which had been in decline for two years during his prime, suddenly shot upward for the next three years.

Quote:
I did say you can't compare different eras, but I was also speaking about the evolvement of the game. The "moves" are advanced as these new guys come in and find different ways to humiliate defenses, and coaching is also different.
If you put for example, a doctor today, back in time in the 1800's, that doctor would have put all of those types of "treatments" to shame with his advanced knowledge, experience, and technology.

My favorite counter to this argument is something a poster named psileas once did: my 10 year old cousin (who knows how to use a computer and can use modern technology) versus Einstein (who can't even use the internet). We can't project how one would do in a different era. All we can judge is how the players did against their peers. I could do the same thing and say Wilt would average 50 ppg in today's era with no dominant interior scorers over 7 feet tall, greater emphasis on protecting stars, and higher usage rates for individual players. I could, but I'd get laughed off this board.


Quote:
Don't know why you're focusing on this. Simply a matter of opinion. Magic continued to win without Kareem. Won more championships, therefore to me, his career was more successful. I did not say one negative thing about Kareem. If you ask fans all around the U.S. who is their top ten, I guarantee you not one list would come close to another. This also sounds like you don't think Magic has a run on being greatest of all time. Accomplishing so much in a short career always makes one wonder what "could have" happened.

1) He didn't win a single title without Kareem. 2) He won fewer championships than Kareem. 3) I didn't say you were criticizing the guy, but I do object to the simple "Magic had the better career" statement, as if it were self-evident. To tell you how great Kareem's career was, I wouldn't have said anything if you have reversed the statement and simply stated Kareem was better than Magic, without any explanation.

Quote:
When I think unguardable, I think of someone who has many options. If Kobe had one side of the court completely shut down, he has about 4 different backup plans of how he can get the shot off. Someone like Magic Johnson on the other hand, would not shoot if he had no possible alternative to score. Rather he'd wait until the next possession, or simply use his amazing court vision to get someone else to receive the glory, which is a great thing btw. What I am saying is, as a one on one player, Kobe made so many difficult shots over many defenders. It didn't matter if 3 guys were on Kobe. It wasn't ever a guarantee that the 3 defenders would come away successful. There was always that doubt of "I don't think we can stop him".

Riiight. Three defenders on Kobe? Please show me evidence of this. The stuff about zone defenses is overblown. As Chuck Klosterman said, Larry Bird played zone defense his entire career. The defensive schemes have grown, mind you, but the truly great players got theirs regardless of what was thrown at them.

Magic was no slouch when it came to scoring, by the way. Look at how he played during the 1991 Finals (I'm pointing out a series where Pippen allegedly shut him down), and see how well he did against prime MJ, arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time. Look at how he beasted MJ down on the block, how well he passed out of double teams, how he made even MJ require help in checking a dude.

Kobe's had his moments, but as great as his skillset is, it doesn't necessarily translate to his overall effectiveness on the court. To give you one example, Kobe's shot between four and six(!) threes a game since 2005. And he shoots about 34% on them. The last three years he's been in the low 30's percentage wise, which is straight bad, and yet he's continued to shoot them. That's bad basketball over the course of several seasons. Magic may not have been able to do all of the individual things Kobe could, but he knew his limits, and rose to (IMO) a level higher than Kobe's despite those limitations. Just because a guy is capable of draining 35-foot threes in a game doesn't mean he should continue to shoot them.

Quote:
I don't think inconsistency is a word that should describe Kobe. Sure he had bad shooting nights. But who nowadays didn't have bad shooting nights? Even with a bad shooting nights, he commanded double teams which created opportunities for others. If he wasn't scoring, he did other things. Look at his bad shooting against the celtics in game 7 of the NBA finals. He came away with 15 rebounds, and that was significant because the team who led in rebounds every game, won the game.

Good points. And they all apply to Magic, who could (and did) dominate a game without scoring a single basket.

Quote:
If Pau Gasol was an elite center/forward, why didn't he lead the grizzlies to any playoff wins? 0-12 his first three tries.

If Kobe was the greatest Laker of all time, why did he go 4-8 (with one missed playoffs) without Shaq or Gasol? You know the answer: the team around the player matters. Pau had a better team around him than Kobe did, but he also played against far tougher teams in the playoffs. You take your pick: the Duncan Spurs in the middle of a championship run, or the Nash Suns without STAT?


Quote:
He made Kobe a lot better because of how smart he was, but Kobe overall made him the better player. Phil Jackson overall made Pau the better player. They helped him get over his "soft" reputation when needed most. Improved from 14 ppg to 24 ppg in both finals series against the celtics. Drew, like you said, to a far lesser extent. Odom wasn't elite but he was the best asset to have. The point is, Bynum Odom Pau probably don't add up to a Shaquille O'Neal in his prime, which is debatable as well. That being said, Kobe won without Shaq. It was a big deal at the time. It sure as heck shut the media up lol.

My point wasn't that Pau by himself was super amazing, btw. As you caught onto, the three-headed Pau/Lamar/Drew monster was miles beyond what any other team in the league had. Individually, they were all good, but it was the fact that three huge, skilled dudes were on the same team that really shifted the scales in our favor. Kobe was his usual, awesome self--the team around him changed. That was my point.



Quote:
He probably did, but it wasn't nearly as much as the "drama" that we'd seen guys like Kobe go through.

Sure, in the pre-internet age. It should be mentioned that Kobe brings a lot of the drama onto himself. That thing in Colorado happened because he had srgery on his knee there without going through the proper channels or even letting his team know. The criticism about being a crappy teammate occurs because, by all accounts, Kobe's either a relentless perfectionist who demands the same of his teammates, or a complete asshole who verbally murders those who aren't as good as he is.

Quote:
Fair enough in regards to the holy trinity of players. Now let me ask you, what did Kobe not do yet?

I think you alluded to this earlier in the thread. It's not so much about what Kobe didn't do, but what Magic did do. He may not have had Kobe's longevity (which I personally don't factor as strongly), but he impacted games at a higher level IMO than Kobe did.

Last edited by Frank Foley : 10-17-2012 at 02:46 AM.
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:46 AM   #37
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmanfan
I can't believe anyone who has watched the Lakers since 1980 or earlier
wouldn't say Magic is the best....

I do agree that Magic and Kobe are the two at the top of the list. If Magic
had played 5+ more years, and set the assist record, this choice might
be easier... But they both did their whole careers with the Lakers, both
brought ships, but I still think Magic's role was more important... Kobe
started slow and created some turmoil along the way... Just because
he's the second coming of MJ doesn't push him above Magic IMO.


Both Magic and Kobe did things that I had never seen before, both amazed me for many years. I'd have to say that between the two that Magic is my favorite Laker of all time......but the best? Kobe destroys Magic when it comes to defense.....that cannot be reasonably argued against....don't even try. Magic NEVER made an NBA all-defensive team.....not even once...he was never close to a top defensive player. Funny to note that Michael Cooper was all-NBA defensive team 8 times....and he was a bench player.
Kobe has made it 12 times including a record 9 first team.......end of argument.
To say that longevity is not a factor is just an excuse.....sorry.....that just doesn't hold water.

Magic created just as much turmoil as Kobe, to say differently is just clueless..
Magic: demanded his coach be fired, demanded that Norm Nixon be traded, had to retire from the NBA because of contracting HIV, came back to the NBA amid huge controversy because fear or contracting HIV which led to new rules regarding cuts.

Kobe: Was instrumental in having Shaq traded, Demanded a trade if ownership didn't get better players, was accused of rape.

Stop with the Kobe started slow bull, Kobe came in straight out of high school and has now had more effective seasons than Magic.
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:53 AM   #38
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

Lets not get silly with facts. Kareem has more rings than Magic. Fact. Also, to the post regarding longevity, Magic had to retire early. HIV. Yeah, we got got by Jordans Bulls, but we still made it to the Finals! And Magic had gotten to the point in his career where he was elevating his low post game to new untapped levels and becoming more of a strong forward. Dont tell me he didnt have at least 4 more seasons left in him to contend for a title. If that HIV bug didnt strike, who knows? Man might have got 6 or 7... Yes, it would be tough without Kareem, but lets not forget, we got to the Finals in '89 when old battle tested warrior Kareems slow ass could barely even move up the court anymore. Has there ever been a more exciting basketball player to watch on the court besides Magic? What he did for the sport cant be put into words... Thered be no Stapes Center Lake Show if it wasnt for Magic and Showtime at The Great Western Forum. He is a pioneer. Maybe when Kobe Beans career is all said and done, he might have acomplished more in terms of scoring titles and rings, but for being a pioneer and face of a legacy in sports history, he cant equal Magic Johnson.

Last edited by LA Lakers : 10-17-2012 at 05:42 AM.
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Old 10-17-2012, 01:49 PM   #39
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

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Lets not get silly with facts. Kareem has more rings than Magic. Fact. Also, to the post regarding longevity, Magic had to retire early. HIV. Yeah, we got got by Jordans Bulls, but we still made it to the Finals! And Magic had gotten to the point in his career where he was elevating his low post game to new untapped levels and becoming more of a strong forward. Dont tell me he didnt have at least 4 more seasons left in him to contend for a title. If that HIV bug didnt strike, who knows? Man might have got 6 or 7... Yes, it would be tough without Kareem, but lets not forget, we got to the Finals in '89 when old battle tested warrior Kareems slow ass could barely even move up the court anymore. Has there ever been a more exciting basketball player to watch on the court besides Magic? What he did for the sport cant be put into words... Thered be no Stapes Center Lake Show if it wasnt for Magic and Showtime at The Great Western Forum. He is a pioneer. Maybe when Kobe Beans career is all said and done, he might have acomplished more in terms of scoring titles and rings, but for being a pioneer and face of a legacy in sports history, he cant equal Magic Johnson.

Well, you make some damn great points.....i'll go a bit further.
There would be no Lakers if not for Elgin Baylor who saved the franchise from folding like so many others had.......eventually enabling the team to move to LA.....he was a pioneer, Jerry West.....the LOGO, despite taking forever to win the title exemplified the spirit and greatness of the Lakers and has done more for the franchise than anyone else. I would be remiss to leave out Mr. Chick Hearn who was the voice and spirit...and mentor to this franchise and was so essential for all those many years the NBA games were not televised and you could only get games on radio....with the exception of a few nationally televised games.....even some NBA finals games aired at 11:30pm after the news. When you think of the Forum, you will always think of Magic Johnson and YES, if not for him, Staples wouldn't be there, 5 banners wouldn't be there......but reality is that when you think of Staples Center, now and throughout it's history you will only think of Kobe, this is his house, this is his team and all of the "Moments" within belong to Kobe. 81 points will live forever, his 5+ rings will be THE LAKERS, for the years to come, unsurpassed by anyone in a Lakers uniform......as it is now, kids don't know Magic the way we know Magic. Would Magic have won more rings if he hadn't retired that doesn't make any difference, this is about reality not speculation......maybe Kobe wins another 3 titles if he appeased Shaq and now would have 8 rings....who knows, who cares.
Reallity is that Magic may have an overall edge on offense but Kobe has an enormous edge on defense and is and will be remembered as the greatest Laker of all time.

I only mentioned players I saw play live...so no Mikan.
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:59 PM   #40
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

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Originally Posted by DKLaker
Well, you make some damn great points.....i'll go a bit further.
There would be no Lakers if not for Elgin Baylor who saved the franchise from folding like so many others had.......eventually enabling the team to move to LA.....he was a pioneer, Jerry West.....the LOGO, despite taking forever to win the title exemplified the spirit and greatness of the Lakers and has done more for the franchise than anyone else. I would be remiss to leave out Mr. Chick Hearn who was the voice and spirit...and mentor to this franchise and was so essential for all those many years the NBA games were not televised and you could only get games on radio....with the exception of a few nationally televised games.....even some NBA finals games aired at 11:30pm after the news. When you think of the Forum, you will always think of Magic Johnson and YES, if not for him, Staples wouldn't be there, 5 banners wouldn't be there......but reality is that when you think of Staples Center, now and throughout it's history you will only think of Kobe, this is his house, this is his team and all of the "Moments" within belong to Kobe. 81 points will live forever, his 5+ rings will be THE LAKERS, for the years to come, unsurpassed by anyone in a Lakers uniform......as it is now, kids don't know Magic the way we know Magic. Would Magic have won more rings if he hadn't retired that doesn't make any difference, this is about reality not speculation......maybe Kobe wins another 3 titles if he appeased Shaq and now would have 8 rings....who knows, who cares.
Reallity is that Magic may have an overall edge on offense but Kobe has an enormous edge on defense and is and will be remembered as the greatest Laker of all time.

I only mentioned players I saw play live...so no Mikan.
Word props for mentioning Chick too.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:34 PM   #41
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

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Word props for mentioning Chick too.

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Old 10-17-2012, 11:56 PM   #42
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

Frank Foley,

Thank you for some of these corrections in my post. Its good to have someone who's been watching longer (I've only been watching since 14 and im 25 now).

When you mentioned Magic hadn't won after Kareem left, I didn't know that. I also didn't know the hand checking rule was applied seasons before 2007. I was debating based on what I thought I had known. Hope you understand.

There are a few points I'd like to respond to:

1) Regarding Kobe scoring on multiple defenders

Do you remember when the lakers had played the phoenix suns the year they won the championship (either against the magic or the celtics...cant remember exactly).

Phoenix had been desperate that elimination game to stop Kobe. They started throwing 2 defenders on him and he still scored. They eventually had a 3rd guy rotate to help out the 2, and he still scored.

Obviously, this is not something that he does every single game. This can probably happen 1 out of every 6 to 10 games. However, it has happened quite often for him to earn the title "unguardable". Im not responding to your point that Magic had done his share, just kind of a reminder that Kobe did it too, and several times, and additionally, in meaningful games.

2) Regarding why Kobe went 4-8 in the playoffs (with one missed) without Shaq or Gasol

He missed the first playoffs after Shaq's departure. That season we had Caron Butler, Vlade Divac (who played in the last few games only if I am not mistaken), Lamar Odom who was still figuring out his identity and role on not only the lakers, but in the NBA. We also had a bunch of soft, offensive minded, and one dimensional role players who couldn't do much else other than try to hit their wide open shots. Chucky Atkins was a good offensive weapon, but his defense was non existent, and his problems with Kobe during that time frame caused some tension in the locker room after he had yelled that Kobe was the "GM". Kobe suffered a major injury that season on his shoulder when Ira Newble dislocated his shoulder.
Coach Rudy T was a very good coach, but left half way through the season for whatever reason, which in turn resulted in Hamblen's take over. Hamblen was terrible! No offense, no defense; it was depressing.

The 2 seasons after wards, we got the best coach ever to return. You know what else? We traded our most consistent second option for Kwame Brown, signed Smush Parker, and at some points, started Brian Cook. 3 of the worst starters in history, and Kobe still led them to the playoffs. Its impressive.

I know that I am not telling you anything you don't already know; that you're trying to pinpoint some mistakes in my thought process , because Magic also had great players too, and so did Shaq. You can't have a team with one mediocre player (unless you don't play him) and expect to win obviously. With just a little bit of added talent (Gasol + Odom's improvement), immediately they were a finals contender. Not bad.

Now some questions for you,

What did Magic do that Kobe didn't? Keep in mind here that MVP awards and other such notable awards are all popularity vote. Ex: I don't consider MVP awards as a reason to put a player above another, but rather the amount of championships, along with the role of the player in question during the time of winning.

P.S.

Thanks for the good conversation, lets keep this going if your time allows it to.
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