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Old 09-24-2012, 07:22 PM   #16
WillC
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpliii
hm, that's fine then I suppose

do you have any particular criteria in mind? though I guess when there's no objective truth to be uncovered (as is the case with a list like this, no matter what the methodology), that's improbable (and probably counterproductive)

There is deliberately no criteria. I want the rankings to be as open to interpretation as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillC
Criteria for selecting players:

- It's completely up to you. NBA, ABA, pre-NBA, NCAA, individual awards, team success, peak, longevity, style, substance... it's up to you.

Someone might argue that Pete Maravich deserves a high rank due to the way he changed the game, his stylistic approach, his prolific college career and undoubted individual talents. Others might prefer Sam Jones for his team success and ability to fit into a system.

The person able to articulate and justify their nomination the best would thus be chosen.

Neither criteria is right or wrong. And that is the double-edged sword of basketball history; it is both fascinating and infuriating simultaneously.
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:25 PM   #17
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

I think its a great idea. Im not voting in the ISH alltime great player ranking thread. Its too biased. agenda driven, and inconsistent. theyre not objective. and most of all noone wants to cosider the opposing view point. its just my way, or your dumb.


In fact, I think the whole premise of ranking players based on accomplishments is faulty because the only accomplished players i.e. MVPs, DPOYS, etc are only awarded these trophies because they have the best teams around them.
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:27 PM   #18
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillC
There is deliberately no criteria. I want the rankings to be as open to interpretation as possible.



Someone might argue that Pete Maravich deserves a high rank due to the way he changed the game, his stylistic approach, his prolific college career and undoubted individual talents. Others might prefer Sam Jones for his team success and ability to fit into a system.

The person able to articulate and justify their nomination the best would thus be chosen.

Neither criteria is right or wrong. And that is the double-edged sword of basketball history; it is both fascinating and infuriating simultaneously.

well, it should be fun to watch

I probably won't be participating in the nominations themselves since I have little interest in comparing players against one another (I'm probably too objective for my own good...studied math/stats in school, so deliberating without a definite ends to the means isn't really my thing), but it's always interesting when novel arguments/lines of thought/evidence come to light

good luck with your project
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:32 PM   #19
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
I think its a great idea. Im not voting in the ISH alltime great player ranking thread. Its too biased. agenda driven, and inconsistent. theyre not objective. and most of all noone wants to cosider the opposing view point. its just my way, or your dumb.


In fact, I think the whole premise of ranking players based on accomplishments is faulty because the only accomplished players i.e. MVPs, DPOYS, etc are only awarded these trophies because they have the best teams around them.

Exactly. The voting currently taking place on ISH is almost redundant; we may as well devise a formula to calculate players based purely on their awards and accolades. In fact, I have done that before, and the results are predictable and inevitably flawed.

It is far more interesting to engage in intelligent debate about the merits of each player.

Like I said before, we might argue about Pete Maravich (flamboyant, legendary) versus Sam Jones (winner, team player), but then someone else might throw in Grant Hill (high peak, unfulfilled promise), Joe Fulks (pioneer, revolutionary) or Alex English (one dimensional, prolific).

No formulae can accurately compare those players. Instead, it is subjective and, therefore, a matter of debate and discussion if we are to attempt to rank them sensibly.
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:37 PM   #20
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

You posted that you select the winning player every day. So I guess one thread for every position on your top 25.

What if a poster(a bunch of playerfan posters) loses and another player takes the spot. Should the posters just repost in the next round?

I think it would be great if any posters who lost would not be allowed to post for that same player anymore. Meaning if someone argues Hakeem is the GOAT, that very poster is not allowed to make a case for Hakeem at any spot anymore.

This would erase bias I think, since the poster has to estimate where on the list the player has a realistic case and the poster has to risk his player not winning if the case is to weak and maybe denying him from winning at the real "range of his legacy".
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:42 PM   #21
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by Overdrive
You posted that you select the winning player every day. So I guess one thread for every position on your top 25.

What if a poster(a bunch of playerfan posters) loses and another player takes the spot. Should the posters just repost in the next round?

I think it would be great if any posters who lost would not be allowed to post for that same player anymore. Meaning if someone argues Hakeem is the GOAT, that very poster is not allowed to make a case for Hakeem at any spot anymore.

This would erase bias I think, since the poster has to estimate where on the list the player has a realistic case and the poster has to risk his player not winning if the case is to weak and maybe denying him from winning at the real "range of his legacy".

I created room for the top 25 in my opening post, but I expect we could go much further than that. In fact, ideally, we'd aim for a top 100 project.

I would prefer to keep all of the discussion within this thread, rather than starting a new thread each day.

The problem with disallowing multiple members voting for the same player is that the first person to nominate that player might do a bad job of it, thus ruining the player's chances of being selected.
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:49 PM   #22
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by WillC
I created room for the top 25 in my opening post, but I expect we could go much further than that. In fact, ideally, we'd aim for a top 100 project.

I would prefer to keep all of the discussion within this thread, rather than starting a new thread each day.

The problem with disallowing multiple members voting for the same player is that the first person to nominate that player might do a bad job of it, thus ruining the player's chances of being selected.

That's not what I meant. I'm not opposed to multiple posters posting for one guy.

What I was trying to say is that if an educated poster makes an great case for Lebron James as the GOAT, which is not realistic imo, and loses his post gets void for the number two spot and further, so that guy has to rely on others to win Lebrons rightful spot. That's why it might delete any bias, because reasonable posters, who provide great arguments for "their" player might not post for their player in wrong spots.

Doing this in only one thread though might get very confusing.
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:53 PM   #23
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

Just thought I'd throw this in, jlauber copy-paste style, may he rest in peace.

Why Wilt is not a Top 5 Player of all-time:

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In the Game 5, Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7, Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in game 2. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Divisional Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Divisional Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-68 (41.2%)

1965 Divisional Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1962 Divisional Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

Wilt should not be ranked over Bird, Shaq, Kobe and Duncan.

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have won more

Wilt - 2 Championships
Bird - 3 Championships
Shaq - 4 Championships
Kobe - 5 Championships
Duncan - 4 Championships

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have a winning record in the NBA Finals

Wilt: 2-4
Bird: 3-2
Shaq: 4-2
Kobe: 5-2
Duncan: 4-0

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have a higher winning % with HCA

Wilt: 13-5
Bird: 24-7
Shaq: 24-5
Kobe: 27-2
Duncan: 23-6

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have not dropped significant production come Playoff time

Wilt's PPG in the Regular season: 30.1
Wilt's PPG in the Playoffs: 22.5
Wilt's PPG in the Finals: 18.6

Wilt's FT% in the Regular season: 51.1
Wilt's FT% in the Playoffs: 46.5
Wilt's FT% in the Finals: 38.0

Let's take a look at his teammates for those who will use the "he didn't have help"

Jerry West was arguably the best player in 1968-69 and 1969-70.
Here were his averages

1969 NBA Playoffs: 30.9 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 7.5 apg, 46.3 FG%
1969 NBA Finals: 37.9 ppg (2nd highest ever in an NBA Finals series)
1970 NBA Playoffs: 31.2 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 8.4 apg, 46.9 FG%
1970 NBA Finals: 31.3 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 7.7 apg, 45.0 FG%

Wilt still lost both those years.

In the 1969 Playoffs, the Lakers had HCA for every series including the NBA Finals. Wilt had the best player in the league, yet lost to a Boston Celtic team that did not reach 50 wins in the regular season and led by Bill Russell in his last season.

Wilt's HOF teammates

'60 - Paul Arizin, Tom Gola
'61 - Paul Arizin, Tom Gola
'62 - Paul Arizin, Tom Gola
'63 - Tom Gola
'64 - Nate Thurmond
'65 - Nate Thurmond, Hal Greer, Chet Walker
'66 - Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker
'67 - Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker
'68 - Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker
'69 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
'70 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
'71 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich
'72 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich
'73 - Jerry West, Gail Goodrich

9 HOF teammates

Wilt's teammates that were All-Stars but NOT HOFers

'62 - Tom Mescherry
'63 - Guy Rodgers
'64 - Guy Rodgers
'65 - Luke Jackson

Wilt had Hall Of Fame teammates on his team every single season of his career. 12/14 seasons he had at least 2 HOF teammates.
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:54 PM   #24
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by Overdrive
That's not what I meant. I'm not opposed to multiple posters posting for one guy.

What I was trying to say is that if an educated poster makes an great case for Lebron James as the GOAT, which is not realistic imo, and loses his post gets void for the number two spot and further, so that guy has to rely on others to win Lebrons rightful spot. That's why it might delete any bias, because reasonable posters, who provide great arguments for "their" player might not post for their player in wrong spots.

That would be difficult for me to track. Instead, I see no harm in a member using his (failed) nomination again in the next 'round' of nominations. It would encourage quality posts.

If members post 'their' player in unrealistic spots, then they would need to pull off one of the most impressive pieces of writing to even garner any consideration. It can be done, though. For example, I fully expect Jordan to get some genuine competition for the top pick.

I'm fed up of seeing people brain-washed by Bill Simmons' and other writers' rankings. It is time we started thinking for ourselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdrive
Doing this in only one thread though might get very confusing.

You might be right. I will give it some thought. Perhaps separate threads is a better idea to avoid clutter within one thread.
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:55 PM   #25
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

Deuce Bigalow, that is why we need a 200-word limit.

Also, nominations can only be in favour of a given player.
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:56 PM   #26
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

actually, perhaps I am interested (thanks Deuce for the idea)

are you accepting only pro arguments, or cons/rebuttals as well?

EDIT: you answered my question
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:59 PM   #27
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by fpliii
actually, perhaps I am interested (thanks Deuce for the idea)

are you accepting only pro arguments, or cons/rebuttals as well?

EDIT: you answered my question

Actually, I wasn't very clear in my answer.

Your nominations, by definition, must nominate a specific player. However, within your nomination, it is acceptable (indeed, encouraged) to justify why your player deserves to be selected ahead of another player.

For example, if you were nominating Bill Russell, you might like to explain and justify why he should be taken ahead of Wilt Chamberlain.

But a nomination solely rebutting Wilt Chamberlain (without nominating a player in his place) would not be considered.
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:59 PM   #28
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by WillC
Deuce Bigalow, that is why we need a 200-word limit.

Also, nominations can only be in favour of a given player.
Okay. So how do we start?
For #1, MJ?
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:00 PM   #29
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

IMO Wilt Chamberlain is like the Queen on a chessboard (I know Im going to get shit for that LOL) With the right coach whom he respected that knew how to play him, he would literally do what you want him to do...Whether that be scoring a hell of a lot of points if need be...Pass more (led league in assists...with stricter rules back then, if it was todays rules then it would of been 10 + APG) A ton of rebounds, blocks. Not a single player had an overall game impact across the board like Chamberlain.

His willingness to completely change his style of play multiple times is something I dont think any other superstar/HOF player had to do. He went from taking 39 FGA (because his team NEEDED it) to more than 10 less within 4 years while still in his prime. And then later double that even though as he proved in 69, was still more than capable of putting up 60 + (which means if he was never asked to change, Kareem wouldn't even be a close second in total points even with 6 + years I think?)Lets see a coach make Jordan take 10 less FGA... Longer than Yao Ming, possibly the most athletic center of all time, armed with an unstoppable fadeaway, great post moves which would be opened up with todays palming rules, amazing timing on his blocks which was good enough to swat Kareems skyhook post injury post prime on multiple occasions...What would he of done when young?

Some people say Wilts ego would of been a problem if he played on The Celtics which would of caused him to not win as much as Russell...but My counter to that is seeing as Chamberlain was so malleable, and truly respected great coaches...Red, a GREAT manipulator would be able to make chamberlain the best player of all time no question. There is a reason he tried to get wilt so bad....Im probably over the limit but Ill say this

Red could of worked wilt like this, who could be considered an egoist...but wanted to prove to everyone he was SKILLED

"Wilt, the best thing you can do to be Remembered, respected, and known as the best player to ever play the game you must give up the personal gain for the team gain. For there gain, is also yours. Not only will you be remembered as the most complete center of all time, but also the most unselfish and most willing to adapt to win. That, will make you remembered as the best ever. If you trust me and let me play you the way I envision, I can guarantee you a Ring for every finger and thumb you have. You'll have the Stats & Rings"

There's more I can go into, like how well he played against kareem, Russell, thurmond, Unseld, Bellamy (73 points- 36 rebounds) ETC...But I'm already over the limit so...I'll leave that to someone who can form an argument much better than my own. Because even I'll admit this probably wont convince anyone of anything other than give them a laugh
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:00 PM   #30
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
Okay. So how do we start?
For #1, MJ?

I will start a new thread soon for the #1 player nominations and debate.
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