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Old 09-24-2012, 08:02 PM   #31
WillC
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by jongib369
IMO Wilt Chamberlain is like the Queen on a chessboard (I know Im going to get shit for that LOL) With the right coach whom he respected that knew how to play him, he would literally do what you want him to do...Whether that be scoring a hell of a lot of points if need be...Pass more (led league in assists...with stricter rules back then, if it was todays rules then it would of been 10 + APG) A ton of rebounds, blocks. Not a single player had an overall game impact across the board like Chamberlain.

His willingness to completely change his style of play multiple times is something I dont think any other superstar/HOF player had to do. He went from taking 39 FGA (because his team NEEDED it) to more than 10 less within 4 years while still in his prime. And then later double that even though as he proved in 69, was still more than capable of putting up 60 + (which means if he was never asked to change, Kareem wouldn't even be a close second in total points even with 6 + years I think?)Lets see a coach make Jordan take 10 less FGA... Longer than Yao Ming, possibly the most athletic center of all time, armed with an unstoppable fadeaway, great post moves which would be opened up with todays palming rules, amazing timing on his blocks which was good enough to swat Kareems skyhook post injury post prime on multiple occasions...What would he of done when young?

Some people say Wilts ego would of been a problem if he played on The Celtics which would of caused him to not win as much as Russell...but My counter to that is seeing as Chamberlain was so malleable, and truly respected great coaches...Red, a GREAT manipulator would be able to make chamberlain the best player of all time no question. There is a reason he tried to get wilt so bad....Im probably over the limit but Ill say this

Red could of worked wilt like this, who could be considered an egoist...but wanted to prove to everyone he was SKILLED

"Wilt, the best thing you can do to be Remembered, respected, and known as the best player to ever play the game you must give up the personal gain for the team gain. For there gain, is also yours. Not only will you be remembered as the most complete center of all time, but also the most unselfish and most willing to adapt to win. That, will make you remembered as the best ever. If you trust me and let me play you the way I envision, I can guarantee you a Ring for every finger and thumb you have. You'll have the Stats & Rings"

There's more I can go into, like how well he played against kareem, Russell, thurmond, Unseld, Bellamy (73 points- 36 rebounds) ETC...But I'm already over the limit so...I'll leave that to someone who can form an argument much better than my own. Because even I'll admit this probably wont convince anyone of anything other than give them a laugh

Copy and paste it into Word, check the word limit, remove some of the irrelevant and less convincing bits, and you'll be left with a great nomination, I'm sure.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:03 PM   #32
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by WillC
Actually, I wasn't very clear in my answer.

Your nominations, by definition, must nominate a specific player. However, within your nomination, it is acceptable (indeed, encouraged) to justify why your player deserves to be selected ahead of another player.

For example, if you were nominating Bill Russell, you might like to explain and justify why he should be taken ahead of Wilt Chamberlain.

But a nomination solely rebutting Wilt Chamberlain (without nominating a player in his place) would not be considered.

do the rebuttals count towards the 200 word limit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillC
Copy and paste it into Word, check the word limit, remove some of the irrelevant and less convincing bits, and you'll be left with a great nomination, I'm sure.

http://www.wordcounttool.com/
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:07 PM   #33
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by WillC
Copy and paste it into Word, check the word limit, remove some of the irrelevant and less convincing bits, and you'll be left with a great nomination, I'm sure.
I've got 520...idk where to begin lmao...its kind of hard to make a case for best ever with a limit of 200 words to be honest...some players are harder to make an argument for than others because of Time bias and a host of other things
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:08 PM   #34
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

Yes, fpliii, the rebuttals count towards the word limit.

Only one nomination per member per day.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:28 PM   #35
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

Working on a case for Russell and Jordan at the moment. 200 words is tough.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:37 PM   #36
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

Kobe = GOAT. end of story. shutdown the thread. see you when the season starts

/forum
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:39 PM   #37
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by WillC
You're right, my methodology does reward the superior argument. That's precisely what it does. I see no shame in that. It helps eliminate the nominations from less educated users who haven't done their homework while rewarding those users who demonstrate basketball knowledge, common sense and intelligence.

The format of the nominations is up to the individual user. The only restriction is the word limit; I gave it much thought and settled for the 200-word limit because that is sufficient to write plenty while reducing the waffle and long-winded essays.
Interesting idea.

One question: regarding the bolded are you setting yourself as judge of the arguments or the player? Not that there would (necessarily) be only one poster per player but just because no one makes a superior case for say Jordan than Russell, that wouldn't mean that he were better.

And if it is not on strength of argument alone, but specifically whether it manages to overturn your own pre-existing opinion, would it not be in the interests of transparency that your own personal rankings (presumably different from your composite rankings on your website) be posted in advance?

Anyway the project could be interesting depending on the calibre of posters, have you considered PMing some of the posters you deem knowledgeable/respected/whatever to try to ensure you get quality posters comitted to the project?

Other peripheral questions:
Is there going to be any etiqutte for those not nominating but critiquing others posts? What your role during debates: are you planning on staying out of the way, a more active but still neutral arbiter or might you be tempted to join the fray (I don't think it's unreasonable to do so given you'll have your own opinions anyway and it sets a standard/gives people an idea of your criteria; but obviously it's up to you)?
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:48 PM   #38
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by jongib369
I've got 520...idk where to begin lmao...its kind of hard to make a case for best ever with a limit of 200 words to be honest...some players are harder to make an argument for than others because of Time bias and a host of other things
My suggestion would be to cut the "Red would have said" section. If you're trying to make the strongest case (in the manner of an absolute advocate) you probably don't want to highlight that he didn't win even if (as I believe) he wasn't the cause of his teams "failures".

Though this does bring up the issue of whether arguments should attempt to be balanced or purely adversarial-type advocacy. In only 200 words I think it would probably be (primarily) the latter.

Edited to fix typo.

Last edited by Owl : 09-24-2012 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:53 PM   #39
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by Owl
My suggestion would be to cut the "Red would have said" section. If you're trying to make the strongest case (in the manner of an absolute advocate) you probably don't want to highlight that he didn't win even if (as I believe he wasn't the cause of his teams "failures").

Though this does bring up the issue of whether arguments should attempt to be balanced or purely adversarial-type advocacy. In only 200 words I think it would probably be (primarily) the latter.
Id still have another 190 to get rid of lol...w/e. Im sure someone can make the same points I did and more in a better way then I can
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:22 PM   #40
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

*Edit
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:25 AM   #41
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by WillC
One thing has become clear from recent 'greatest player' polls on ISH: the results are heavily influenced by modern fans acting like sheep to vote for their favourite players at the expense of more deserving - but less popular - alternatives. This skews the results in favour of popular and/or modern players.

The majority of GOAT lists are nothing more than a list of their favorites. Look at a poster's GOAT list and look at his list of favorite players, and note how many names appear on both lists. I've noticed that often a given poster's GOAT also conveniently just so happens to be his favorite player as well.
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:17 AM   #42
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

I guess that 200 word limit is strict? Just saw this after my post in the #1 player thread. Think my word count was 500ish. I can cut some things out, I'm sure, but not sure I can get it down to 200 words.
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:33 AM   #43
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by jongib369
IMO Wilt Chamberlain is like the Queen on a chessboard (I know Im going to get shit for that LOL) With the right coach whom he respected that knew how to play him, he would literally do what you want him to do...Whether that be scoring a hell of a lot of points if need be...Pass more (led league in assists...with stricter rules back then, if it was todays rules then it would of been 10 + APG) A ton of rebounds, blocks. Not a single player had an overall game impact across the board like Chamberlain.

His willingness to completely change his style of play multiple times is something I dont think any other superstar/HOF player had to do. He went from taking 39 FGA (because his team NEEDED it) to more than 10 less within 4 years while still in his prime. And then later double that even though as he proved in 69, was still more than capable of putting up 60 + (which means if he was never asked to change, Kareem wouldn't even be a close second in total points even with 6 + years I think?)Lets see a coach make Jordan take 10 less FGA... Longer than Yao Ming, possibly the most athletic center of all time, armed with an unstoppable fadeaway, great post moves which would be opened up with todays palming rules, amazing timing on his blocks which was good enough to swat Kareems skyhook post injury post prime on multiple occasions...What would he of done when young?

Some people say Wilts ego would of been a problem if he played on The Celtics which would of caused him to not win as much as Russell...but My counter to that is seeing as Chamberlain was so malleable, and truly respected great coaches...Red, a GREAT manipulator would be able to make chamberlain the best player of all time no question. There is a reason he tried to get wilt so bad....Im probably over the limit but Ill say this

Red could of worked wilt like this, who could be considered an egoist...but wanted to prove to everyone he was SKILLED

"Wilt, the best thing you can do to be Remembered, respected, and known as the best player to ever play the game you must give up the personal gain for the team gain. For there gain, is also yours. Not only will you be remembered as the most complete center of all time, but also the most unselfish and most willing to adapt to win. That, will make you remembered as the best ever. If you trust me and let me play you the way I envision, I can guarantee you a Ring for every finger and thumb you have. You'll have the Stats & Rings"

There's more I can go into, like how well he played against kareem, Russell, thurmond, Unseld, Bellamy (73 points- 36 rebounds) ETC...But I'm already over the limit so...I'll leave that to someone who can form an argument much better than my own. Because even I'll admit this probably wont convince anyone of anything other than give them a laugh

Everything I've read about Chamberlain leading the league in assists lends itself to me believing it was selfishly done and, in a lot of cases, to the detriment of his team. Just for that speciic season. Wilt was a very good passer for a center 9although I'd have Walton andRussel ahead of him) but I'm not sure how strong that season leading APG season is to his case as a passer.

Also, I tend to think Wilt "changing" the way he played so often in his career could be a big reason why he didn't win as much as you would think a player of his caliber should've won. I think if he plays like he did in the '66-'67 throughout his career, we may be talking about him as the undisputed GOAT. I know it helps that he had a very good supporting cast that year and it resulted in a championship. I don't think Wit ever totally found that balance between putting up stats and playing in whatever manner was needed to give his team the best chance to win if that makes sense.

I know you can argue that, in the seasons where he was putting up insane scoring numbers on a lot of shots with good efficiency, that was how he needed to play to give his team the best chance to win; and you may not be wrong. However, I do think you can come at it from the other direction by saying Wilt never really completely and totally "figuring it out" on a consistent basis throughout his career was more detrimental to his legacy than helpful.

I don't want to come off as a Wilt "hater" because he was a phenomenal player. I have no problem with you or anyone else arguing him as the best ever. It really does depend on each individual person's criteria. I may put too much weight on winning which is heavily influenced by team play, but I also thin the best of the best find a way to get the most out of their supporting casts and, as a result, win the most in their era with a capable supporting cast. I'm also one of those doesn't completely buy into the "Russell had far superior supporting casts throughout his career" argument with emphasis on far, not better.
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Old 09-25-2012, 03:30 AM   #44
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

Since no one voted him, I'll go head and vote Lebron James. And here's why he's the greatest player of all time:

- greatest at hogging stats
- greatest at being aware that if he chose to shoot he'll miss so he'll pass ball to great/role players like wade, bosh, shane battier, ray allen to increase his APG
- greatest at realizing he needs help from two other all-stars (wade/bosh) to win a championship so he joins miami
- greatest at realizing that wade is the real closer so if his choke moment approaches he'd just pass the ball to wade to score to avoid being called lechoked
- greatest at making money for the league after being over-hyped/promoted/talked so many times by the media and nba
-greatest at turning charges into foul while he tackles his opponents
-greatest at recruiting all-star players like ray allen to help increase his APG and help him win another championship
- greatest at avoiding the dunk contest because he knows he can't win
- greatest at working with the league to try to convinced the world with overhyping and stat-hogging to make people think that he's the best player in the world
- greatest at posting smaller players
- greatest at calling himself king james
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Old 09-25-2012, 03:31 AM   #45
WillC
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Default Re: THE GREAT DEBATE: Ranking the Greatest Players of All-Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
Interesting idea.

One question: regarding the bolded are you setting yourself as judge of the arguments or the player? Not that there would (necessarily) be only one poster per player but just because no one makes a superior case for say Jordan than Russell, that wouldn't mean that he were better.

Without meaning to side-step your question, I plan on judging the players based upon the arguments put forward. Simple as that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
And if it is not on strength of argument alone, but specifically whether it manages to overturn your own pre-existing opinion, would it not be in the interests of transparency that your own personal rankings (presumably different from your composite rankings on your website) be posted in advance?

Although the rankings on my website are a composite of other rankings, I only chose to publish them because I tend to agree with them and found them interesting. I like your idea of sharing that list in case people want to use it as a guide. However, as I have said before, my mind is very open to new ways of ranking the players.

Here is the list: http://basketballjournalist.blogspot...a-history.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
Anyway the project could be interesting depending on the calibre of posters, have you considered PMing some of the posters you deem knowledgeable/respected/whatever to try to ensure you get quality posters comitted to the project?

I am hoping that they will see the topics and have the desire to contribute. I don't want to have to persuade anyone to join it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
Other peripheral questions:
Is there going to be any etiqutte for those not nominating but critiquing others posts? What your role during debates: are you planning on staying out of the way, a more active but still neutral arbiter or might you be tempted to join the fray (I don't think it's unreasonable to do so given you'll have your own opinions anyway and it sets a standard/gives people an idea of your criteria; but obviously it's up to you)?

I plan on sitting back, reading the posts and selecting the winning nomination each day.

I don't expect to join in but I may offer my opinion from time to time. But I want to select the winner based upon other people's nominations, not my own.

If any members act immaturely (e.g. criticising each other), they will simply be ignored. Likewise, 5-word nominations won't be considered.

I am considering changing the word limit to 500 words based on the feedback in the #1 player thread.
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