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Old 09-29-2012, 06:34 AM   #46
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Default Re: #50 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Dwight Howard.
He's been the dominant center in the league for half a decade, and hasn't even reached his peak yet. He has carried his team on his shoulders for years, leading them as far as the Finals.

While he hasn't had to face the same kind of competition as other great centers from the past, and while he hasn't had the same dominant offensive stats either... his defense is legendary in any era, and his ability to consistently perform as a first offensive option in the guard-oriented 21st century - the mere fact that he is trusted to play that role for his team when 90% of centers nowadays, even the good ones, are asked to play Joakim Noah - extremely impressive.

A 3 time DPOY, he is along with Kevin Durant one of the most likely players to collect MVPs (he's probably the frontrunner for this year) and titles in years to come. Even if he doesn't reach those heights, he is almost certainly going up in those all-time lists, whereas Thurmond's career is done.
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Old 09-29-2012, 08:36 AM   #47
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Default Re: #50 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Nate Thurmond.
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Old 09-29-2012, 09:59 AM   #48
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Default Re: #50 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Nate Thurmond
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Old 09-29-2012, 10:10 AM   #49
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Default Re: #50 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Worthy
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Old 09-29-2012, 10:46 AM   #50
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Default Re: #50 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Reggies own coach ranked him behind Derrick Mckey....and Mckey wont be top 200.

And if its about who is actually the best Kevin Durant and Dwight slaughter Reggie And having already accomplished more than he did and being ranked much higher in their time there is no reason for his name to even be mentioned.

There are people who wont make top 100 Reggie doesnt really compare to.


Quote:
But nobody and i mean NOBODY could guard Reggie Miller in a team game

Reggies inability to create his own shot on a regular basis is all you needed to defend him. dude wasnt scoring like 15-22 points most of his career or going 1-16 in the biggest game of his life because he was unguardable. Reggie did not create many good looks. his big games are when he just makes bad looks because hes hot. But he would straight vanish during big games and small for long stretches because there was little he could do to impose his will that wasnt just playing bad basketball and hoping for a good result.
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Old 09-29-2012, 10:51 AM   #51
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Default Re: #50 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Reggies own coach ranked him behind Derrick Mckey....and Mckey wont be top 200.

Because someone said something, one time, before Reggie hit his prime, does not mean it completely defines Miller's role on those teams relative to McKey's.

None of the players who played with McKey rank him as a top ten win or small forward of all-time as many do with Miller at the shooting guard position.

I understand your point now as I did when first you mentioned it, but having seen those years first hand, one passing comment is not enough to dissuade me from what I believe I saw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Reggies inability to create his own shot on a regular basis is all you needed to defend him.

Well that and a defender with incredible stamina, focus and discipline. And big's who could show on the screens without over committing and leaving a Davis open for a dunk or Smits for a 12 footer. And despite his inability to create his own shot he hit more clutch shots than most stars of his day and built a reputation that exceeds that of many players higher when it comes to the biggest moments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
dude wasnt scoring like 15-22 points most of his career or going 1-16 in the biggest game of his life because he was unguardable.

Reggie did not create many good looks. his big games are when he just makes bad looks because hes hot. But he would straight vanish during big games and small for long stretches because there was little he could do to impose his will that wasnt just playing bad basketball and hoping for a good result.

Just because he isn't shooting doesn't mean he isn't effective. Miller understood this. So did his teammates. And even coach Brown

Quote:
"Reggie's movement creates more looks for our bigs than any play we run for them. There isn't a player in this league who can keep with Reggie for four quarters. He's very unselfish in that he doesn't force the issue as often as most guys would in his place"

EDIT: Not sure if that was Brown or Bird actually, just have the quote attributed to LB, guessing it's Pound for pound though.

This one is Brown, in 1994 after the Pacers beat the Hawks to reach the ECF, reflecting on his philosophy before he came to the Pacers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times 5-94
"I knew it would all have to start with Reggie," Brown had said. Brown had told Miller that he would get on him in practice, and in games. "Every player can get better," said Brown. "My job is to make you -- and the team -- better." Miller understood. "If he could get on me, and help make me a more complete player, the other guys knew that it was O.K. for him to get on them," said Miller. Coach Stresses Team Defense

Here's some stuff from the 1995 playoffs after Indiana eliminated the Knicks behind 28 from Reggie.

"We knew that they would fly to Reggie late in the game, because they didn't want him to beat them," said Pacers forward Derrick McKey

"They were really concentrating on Reggie, so it allowed me to get a little more room," Center Rik Smits said.

"After Reggie's big third quarter the Knicks were forced to pay more attention to him and it really open up our offense." Mark Jackson noted.

Last edited by G.O.A.T : 09-29-2012 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 09-29-2012, 11:35 AM   #52
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Default Re: #50 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

It was not one time. And I assure you...if we go into Larry Brown quotes on reggie miller he wont come out looking good. Especially considering how much more likely a coach is to offer praise of his own players in public than to say what he really feels if its negative. Really:


Quote:
In Indiana, coach Larry Brown, the eternal pessimist, blames his team's lack of a leader for the Pacers' unexpected stay around mediocrity. "Reggie (Miller) is not a leader, not at all," Brown says.


Quote:
nd Indiana's defense starts with Derrick McKey.

"He's as good a defender as there is in the league," coach Larry Brown said. "He's a great all-around player. I don't know where we'd be without him."

"He's the best. He defends every night. He does whatever we need him to do to win," Brown said.

While Brown and teammates call McKey the most important player on the team, McKey was characteristically modest about his play following the win over Charlotte.


Quote:
Washington Post - Dec 20, 1995
Coach Larry Brown, who has referred to McKey as "our best player," said he was " thrilled to death."


And it wasnt just Larry:


Quote:
In fact, Bulls coach Phil Jackson voted for McKey for the All-Star team, saying: "He's their best player. He's the reason they are where they are."


At the time...Larry Brown...a basketball lifer and obsessive lover of the game and HOF coach of the Pacers...ranks Mckey over Reggie. Phil Jackson...HOF coach of a division rival who has been playing Reggie over for years...rans Mckey over reggie. national media names 4 people not in this top 50 to the All NBA team over reggie. Millions of fans do not vote him into the ASG....and the NBA coaches see fit to name Kenny Anderson and Mookie Blaylock to the team on the bench and not Reggie.

But here we are 18 years later and people who barely remember it or dont...have Reggie top 50 all time and guys over him probably not top 100. doesnt...strike anyone as odd? That these esteemed basketball people didnt think highly of Reggie but 20 years later people who dont remember it would say Reggie was better at the time...and we act like the people NOW know better about the past than NBA coaches did in their present?

And before Reggie hit his prime?

That idea really annoys me at times. Reggie Miller was older than Kevin Durant is now in 1990. But people act like he didnt come into his own till he was 30.

Reggie Miller was as good as he ever was in 1989. I watched him back then. He didnt get much better at anything but passing and his athletic ability fell off unusually early and his faceup game back then got him more than his post up game did in the late 90s.

Anyway....as I said. Little to justify even discussing Reggie at the moment and all its gonna do is get 22 year olds who dont remember the real Reggie to vote for him out of name value just like other 90s/early 2000s players.

I dont have to tell you what Dennis Johnson, Billy Cunningham, Paul Westphal, Jojo white, Sidney Moncrief, Tiny Archibald, Earl Monroe and so on did. But a lot of people who dont know...will see Reggie Miller discussion...and vote for him over them. Not because of looking into them and deciding hes better or did more(laughable for at least 4 of them).

But because Reggie Miller played when they were kids and they know more about him.

Hes gonna start getting votes from people who dont know the others soon and while there is nothing to be done about it...I dont need to have some long argument thats just gonna get his name mentioned 70 times and have more deserving/accomplished/talented players disregarded because this is 2012 and nobody cares about Dennis Johnson anymore.

Last edited by Kblaze8855 : 09-29-2012 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 09-29-2012, 11:43 AM   #53
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Default Re: #50 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

James Worthy.

"James Worthy was one of the top 10 -- top five -- players in playoff history" - Magic Johnson

Three Words. Big. Game. James.

Definitely should be the next selection.
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Old 09-29-2012, 11:45 AM   #54
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Default Re: #50 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
That idea really annoys me at times. Reggie Miller was older than Kevin Durant is now in 1990. But people act like he didnt come into his own till he was 30.

Fair enough. He was in his prime, but he hadn't accomplished the things that define his career yet. Almost all of his best playoff games came after those 1995 quotes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Reggie Miller was as good as he ever was in 1989. I watched him back then. He didnt get much better at anything but passing and his athletic ability fell off unusually early and his faceup game back then got him more than his post up game did in the late 90s.

And defense of course. As Brown would often note, Miller was underrated as defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Anyway....as I said. Little to justify even discussing Reggie at the moment and all its gonna do is get 22 year olds who dont remember the real Reggie to vote for him out of name value just like other 90s/early 2000s players.

I dont have to tell you what Dennis Johnson, Billy Cunningham, Paul Westphal, Jojo white, Sidney Moncrief, Tiny Archibald, Earl Monroe and so on did. But a lot of people who dont know...will see Reggie Miller discussion...and vote for him over them. Not because of looking into them and deciding hes better or did more(laughable for at least 4 of them).

But because Reggie Miller played when they were kids and they know more about him.

Sure but who cares. Don't distort what Miller was or focus on the bad. He was brilliant in clutch games far more often than not. As far as the quotes go, Brown either believed both guys were his best players and leaders (since we have quotes confirming that stance him) or he was just speaking in the moment.

I know you don't believe that Derrick McKey was the Pacers best player or that Brown or Jackson ever believed that. You understand that coach say those things for various reasons. To motivate a player, to challenge a player, to build up an underrated or under-appreciated player, to distract from another issue etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Hes gonna start getting votes from people who dont know the others soon and while there is nothing to be done about it...I dont need to have some long argument thats just gonna get his name mentioned 70 times and have more deserving/accomplished/talented players disregarded because this is 2012 and nobody cares about Dennis Johnson anymore.

Earlier you mentioned Miller shooting 1-16 in "the biggest game of his life" or something to that effect. That was the Lakers game, game one of the Finals correct?

When you mention Dennis Johnson, its worth noting that he out-baded (not sure why I made a word up there) Miller and even John Starks when it comes to Finals failures going 0-14 in game seven of the '78 Finals.

Last edited by G.O.A.T : 09-29-2012 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 09-29-2012, 11:46 AM   #55
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Default Re: #50 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Nate Thurmond
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Old 09-29-2012, 11:47 AM   #56
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Default Re: #50 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Ray Allen.
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Old 09-29-2012, 11:51 AM   #57
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Default Re: #50 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by BankShot
Which players in the ISH Top 50 would you place him above??
Pierce

cant believe RG brainwashed ISH to pick Pierce ahead of him
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Old 09-29-2012, 11:51 AM   #58
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Default Re: #50 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Rodman
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Old 09-29-2012, 11:53 AM   #59
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Default Re: #50 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

James Worthy
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Old 09-29-2012, 12:16 PM   #60
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Default Re: #50 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Larry Brown loves defense and Phil Jackson respects all around players. I have no reason to think they didnt think Mckey was better than Reggie. Larry especially. Hes a pretty straight talker.

And sure Dennis had shitty shooting games. But he wasnt a scorer. he was a brilliant all around basketball player who could score. And Dennis was a second year player who had yet to even be an all star. Not exactly the same as acting like Reggie wasnt in his prime at 28. He put up 13ppg that year. But the very next season he put up 21/6/4 2 steals and 2 blocks a game in the playoffs in winning it all...as finals MVP...having 30+ and 10 finals games with 4 blocks...one of which was on an attempted game winner. And it wasnt even the only game winning defensive play he made in a finals. And then theres:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KotZZMki7E


And he had 27/12/7 that game.

And the next game he had 22/17.

Wasnt great last game but he did his part. Im not sure I wouldnt vote Dennis around this point. Something I had on him a while back:




Quote:
Dennis Johnson was an all NBA first teamer, like a 6 time all star, had about 8 deep playoff runs, won a finals MVP, won 3 rings, made 9 all D teams, stepped up in the playoffs pretty much yearly, was unselfish, well rounded and could and did play and defend 3 positions, and he made several major plays in the finals including:

Blocked an attempted game winner in 79 in a game he had 32/10.
Got a steal and hit the resulting FTs vs the Lakers end of game game 7 in 84
Made the game winner in game 4 in the 85 finals.
Had 22/14 in game 4 of the 84 finals and hit the FTs to seal the game


In the 87 playoffs he averaged 19/9 after 13/8 in the regular season and in the finals:

7 points and 13 assists
20/9/4
26/7/4
15 points and 14 assists
25/11
33/10/5

And his career was winding down.

In the 86 finals

19/11/8
18/7/4
20/7/4
21/4/4
13/5/4
10/5/5/3 steals(they were up by 30 in the 4th)

17/6/5 in the finals in total.


Dennis Johnson was one of the best players in the league, then one of the best role players ever, and he doesnt even get mentioned that often when discussing those celtics. They had a godly frontcourt but he pulled more than his own weight.

DJ was both a superstar and the ultimate role player and didnt know how to lose(the Suns won 57, 46, and 53 with him...and the Sonics won the title...so you cant claim the celtics made him a winner).

If he didnt pass away he wouldnt even be in the HOF having waited 20 years.


Id feel less dirty about it than I would with some of these guys going in over the Durants, Pauls, and Dwights. At least he was arguably the best on a champion(with respect to Gus and Sikma), was an all nba first teamer, and got up to 5th in MVP voting.

There are guys already in who can say none of those.

Last edited by Kblaze8855 : 09-29-2012 at 12:22 PM.
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