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Old 06-25-2006, 06:51 PM   #1
Wuxia
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Default Has Shaq surpassed The Dream on the GOAT list?

After this season, Shaq has 4 rings and is still a major part in the Heat's Championship run averaging close to 20/10.

Has Shaq surpassed Hakeem in your mind as the 4th best center ever?
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Old 06-25-2006, 06:57 PM   #2
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A while ago.
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Old 06-25-2006, 07:11 PM   #3
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Yes.

Actually, I'd rank him higher than 4th all-time.

Last edited by ShannonElements : 06-25-2006 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 06-25-2006, 07:14 PM   #4
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He was ahead of Dream for me even before this year, and that's with all due respect to Hakeem. I mean, let's lay out each of their advantages over the other:


-- Hakeem was the far superior defender, both on the perimeter (where the disparity is huge) and the interior (where, despite Dream's superior bpg numbers, the disparity isn't as large imo since Shaq's mere presence has always discouraged penetration); he has 2 DPOY's to Shaq's 0; Hakeem made the defensive team 9 times (including 5 first teams) as compared to Shaq's 3 selections (0 first teams).

-- Shaq was far more efficient offensively despite not having as diversified a repertoire (i.e., I personally value results over versatility for its own sake, with a few exceptions)

-- Shaq has 3 rings and Finals MVP's to Hakeem's 2 apiece; no, Hakeem never played with a player of Kobe's caliber (Clyde was on the downside of his career in '95, though still productive), but those Rockets were deeper 2-7 than the Lakers were, so it evens out for the most part, especially when looking at the '95 Rockets.

-- Shaq has dominated statistically in a way Hakeem never even approached. Hakeem had a PER greater than 27.0 once in his entire career (with a mark of 27.3 in 1993), whereas Shaq topped 27.0 a whopping 10 times, including a 6 year stretch where he averaged a 29.9 PER. Shaq's career PER (27.8) is greater than Hakeem's single-season best (27.3). 'Nuff said.

-- Each has a single regular season MVP award, though Shaq has more top 5 finishes (5) than does Hakeem (3) excluding their respective MVP seasons.


Ultimately, I don't feel that Hakeem's defensive edge (which is substantial) is enough to counterbalance Shaq's huge edge in statistical impact and winning (both championships/finals appearances and in their respective career winning %'s). Shaq changes the game on the offensive end to at least as great a degree as Hakeem changes it on the defensive end imo. It's not a blowout or anything, but I have Shaq ranked ahead of Hakeem by 1 or 2 positions on the all-time greatest players list. Everyone knows that Shaq deserved at least 1-2 more MVP awards, but can the same be said of Hakeem? Was he ever clearly better than his competition over a period of several years the way Shaq was? I don't think so, personally.

Last edited by Loki : 06-25-2006 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 06-25-2006, 07:19 PM   #5
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^ good post i agree 100%
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Old 06-25-2006, 07:20 PM   #6
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Yeah Shaq's passed Akeem a while ago. And looked as if he was his equal in the finals (just didn't have the team Akeem had).

I think the better question is Akeem or Duncan, easily more comparible players as far as skill. Though Duncan hasn't had nor will he ever have a huge scoring season like 27-30ppg (though he did score 25.5 one year).

Last edited by Y2Gezee : 06-25-2006 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 06-25-2006, 07:29 PM   #7
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I agree with your points and respect your oppinions, but..

Quote:
Was he ever clearly better than his competition over a period of several years the way Shaq was? I don't think so, personally.

Hakeem also happen to come into the league the exact same year as a guy name Michael Jordan...
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Old 06-25-2006, 07:35 PM   #8
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You know before the finals when ESPN Classic was doing the finals marathon. I caught game 1 of Orl-Hou. It didn't seem like Hakeem outplayed shaq. I mean it was only one game so I don't know what happened, but just going by that game Shaq held his own against the dream.

Having said that despite me being a bitter laker fan, hating on shaq all the time, I think by ring #2 shaq had surpassed him. 2001, comeon that alone should be enough. If we want to talk about the Kobe factor, Hakeem had a pretty good team around him to so that shouldn't count against shaq.
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Old 06-25-2006, 07:36 PM   #9
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Great post Loki, once again. Although, Hakeem won one MVP award, not two.
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Old 06-25-2006, 07:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Everyone knows that Shaq deserved at least 1-2 more MVP awards, but can the same be said of Hakeem?

If Jordan wasn't playing in his era, maybe he would have "deserved" a few more MVPs? Perhaps if Shaquille played in that era, he wouldn't have had any due to Jordans dominance...didn't Hakeem win all of his MVP awards (Finals and Reg.) when Jordan was swinging for the Sox?

I agree, Shaquille is the better player and has been for a while now.
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Old 06-25-2006, 09:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wuxia
I agree with your points and respect your oppinions, but..



Hakeem also happen to come into the league the exact same year as a guy name Michael Jordan...

Yeah, but it's not like he was finishing #2 or 3 in the voting behind Jordan all those years, either. Barkley, DRob, and Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShannonElements
Although, Hakeem won one MVP award, not two.

I know, that's why I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Each has a single regular season MVP award



Quote:
If Jordan wasn't playing in his era, maybe he would have "deserved" a few more MVPs?

See above. It's not like Hakeem was finishing top 3 in the voting every year like guys like MJ, Magic, and Bird did. I could see if he finished top 3 every year, or finished #2 in the voting the years Jordan won, but he didn't.
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Old 06-25-2006, 09:59 PM   #12
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Longevity matters for that reason I'd take SHAQ if I needed a real live player......but at their best I think I'd take Hakeem....just for WOW factor and versatility........as I write that I remember Orl Shaq the most impressive athlete I've ever seen live (sorry Wilt ever knew you).......

we'll Shaq has surpassed him....can't say he was better at their respective best though..

Kareem, Big O, WEST MJ, BIRD, WILT, MAGIC, RUSSELL, HAkeem, SHAQ I think I am forgetting someone but that's it man the holy grail....and I don't see how it is possible to ever realistically be better than these guys you can only join the club....this means you KB24..>TD...Lebron..Dwade.... and they still gotta get through guys like Moses, Nate, HAyes..its no joke.
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Old 06-25-2006, 10:09 PM   #13
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Shaq is not better than Hakeem Olajuwon.

I don't see how anyone could make that argument.
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Old 06-25-2006, 10:16 PM   #14
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he stayed near the top longer........that's basically the argument. Shaq's inactive affect on the game is on the same level as MJ's or Wilt's....Hakeem despite being more etalented isn't on that level interms of how people perceive him....even as a Champion he was an underdog.

Different affect on the opposition.
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Old 06-25-2006, 10:20 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KWALI
he stayed near the top longer........that's basically the argument. Shaq's inactive affect on the game is on the same level as MJ's or Wilt's....Hakeem despite being more etalented isn't on that level interms of how people perceive him....even as a Champion he was an underdog.

Different affect on the opposition.
And people actually buy that crap?

Hakeem never played with the talent Shaq did or the coaching Shaq did. No telling how many rings Hakeem would have if that were the case. Hell, Jordan might even have less championship if that were the case.

I don't see anything, anything at all, that would indicate that Shaq is better or was better than Hakeem in Hakeemm's prime.

1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Hakeem
5. Shaq
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