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Old 10-03-2012, 10:21 AM   #16
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

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Old 10-03-2012, 10:31 AM   #17
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
Reggie is a much better playoff performer than Ray and all the numbers/metrics back it up.

Yes, he didn't win much, bu winning a lot of the team is not in control of one player, it's in control of an entire team.

Plus, if you want to really argue, Reggie consistently made it to the post-season each and every season whereas Ray didn't. Ray missed the post-season for most of his prime when he was the #1 option on his team.

Yet even with that, Ray's playoff career and resume is far more memorable.
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:34 AM   #18
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

I guess I'll go with Reggie Miller, tho KJ is making me think twice...also some consideration for Joe Dumars.
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:42 AM   #19
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Quote:

Plus, if you want to really argue, Reggie consistently made it to the post-season each and every season whereas Ray didn't.

The year smits missed games the Pacers missed the playoffs.

And the Pacers made the playoffs with records Ray missed them. He led like 6-7 teams in the 41 win range and I know the Bucks in 03 or so were around that. Reggie had started falling off a bit before the Pacers were a serious team. People have this odd belief that his prime was in his 30s or something.

It wasnt. Reggie in late 1989 was doing as much or more than he was when people remember him. I watched those game. The young Reggie.

Reggie in his prime led a team that didnt matter. He was 28-38 when he was winning on teams that didnt ask him to do much.

The only version of Reggie id consider close to a real star....was losing. Reggie was sat down by Larry Brown and asked to take a back seat. Win with team defense and leaning on the frontcourt and spreading the ball around.

But Reggie playing his best....straight up so what level teams.

They turned around with good coaching, defensive role players, a good frontcourt, and toughness. Reggie was as far as...approach...that "**** you" kinda gritty play...their leader. But he was doing less on the floor than he was before.
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:45 AM   #20
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

I still have trouble putting Ray Allen this close to the top 50. Just feels wrong.
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:21 AM   #21
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Not that I'm voting for him, but I'm still amazed at the fact that Jerry Lucas keeps getting absolutely no votes.

He is the only player not named Wilt or Pettit to have avg. 20ppg and 20rpg in a season. He did it twice. Pettit did it only once. While I don't particularly know that much about his reputation amongst his peers, his resume', on paper, is quite impressive. I do know that he was known as one of the best shooting forwards of the 60's.

1964 NBA Rookie of the Year
1964-65 NBA All-Star Game MVP
NBA champ (1973 Knicks)

7X All star
3X NBA All-NBA (1st)
2X NBA All-NBA (2nd)

Led league in fg% in 1964 (Edged out Wilt)
Was a top 4 rebounder for most of his career. (Normally right behind Wilt and Russell)

Last edited by jlip : 10-03-2012 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:48 AM   #22
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Kevin Durant
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:59 AM   #23
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Ignoring for a moment that several of them were not in the proper conference to keep him out of the ASG....and that the ASG is guard/forward/center so it was playersl ike BJ Armstrong, Mookie Blaylock, Kenny Anderson and so on keeping him out as well....

You are referencing 1994 for those three players, that year was a clear snub for Miller, who was the top scoring guard in the East. In the games following the all-star diss, Miller posted 25 with 9 assists and 5 steals, 25-5-4 and 21 points on 9-11 shooting. He then proceeded to lead the Pacers to the Conference Finals and made the all-star team every season the rest of the decade with the exception of 1997 when the Pacers imploded on Larry Brown and did not send a player to the game.

Prior to 1994, Miller was not an all-star level guard, he posted good numbers but he hadn't shown the type of player he could be in the postseason for an extended period.

He really burst onto the scene in the 1993 playoffs when he averaged over 30 a game against a Knicks defense that ranked among the all-time greatest in points per possession allowed. In the '94 series he averaged over 30 in the final four games of that battle as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
When Dan Majerle, Nick Anderson, and Hersey Hawkins keep you from being anything level wise...you arent anything close to top 50.

What do you mean here? What did Hawk, Thunder Dan or Nick the Brick ever do claim superiority to Reggie?


As much as you think Miller gets overrated by today's younger fans or the casual fan 20-somethings, I think you are underrating what he did. The Pacers were relevant for nearly a decade with Miller leading the way with steady efficient 20 a night scoring and relentless away from the ball movement, which was the driving force of the Pacers offense, all while consistently elevating his level of play in the postseason.

Coaches changed, teammates changed, opponents changed and Miller remained the face of the franchise and the franchise remained a contender.

Unquestionably Tracy McGrady was a better player than Reggie Miller, but I'd rather have Reggie's career and that's not just because T-Mac had awful teammates in Orlando and played in a super-competitive Western Conference. I know Miller is going to raise his game in the playoffs and I know his game will always help his teammates and never impeded them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
The year smits missed games the Pacers missed the playoffs.

This is a bit of misrepresentation, especially from someone with your knowledge.

That season Indiana also had a bitter, trying to get fired Larry brown coaching them. Traded Mark Jackson (only to get him back from Denver the next year), lost McKey for 30 games and traded away veteran reserves Ricky Pierce and Eddie Johnson, both former sixth men of the year.

Somehow I don't think just Smits missing 10 more games than he did the year prior was the difference.

Last edited by G.O.A.T : 10-03-2012 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:08 PM   #24
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking
Yet even with that, Ray's playoff career and resume is far more memorable.
Based on what? Ray was not as good of a playoff performer as Reggie was. Ray has put up a lot of stinkers in the playoffs especially with Boston whereas Reggie hardly ever has or never did at least during his prime.

Just a copy and paste from another post I made.

2008 - Ray Allen was playing like hot garbage until the NBA finals. In the ECSF vs. the Cavs, Ray scored less than 10 ppg and wasn't even the 3rd leading scorer on the team, KG, Pierce, and even Rondo averaged more ppg than Ray did in that series.

The only reason why that series went to 7 games was because of how bad Ray played. If he played better than that, that series would have went to 5 games max. It shouldn't have went to 7 games but it did due to how poorly Ray played.

Ray vs. 2008 Cavs in ECSF- 9.3 ppg, 32.8% FG, 16.7% 3P.

2009 - Ray Allen plays like hot garbage against the Orlando Magic. This was the series where JJ Redick made a name for himself. In the past, people considered Redick a bust, a joke, and practically the Adam Morrison of the league. JJ Reddick literally shut down Ray in that series.

Ray vs. 2009 Magic in ECSF - 13.1 ppg, 34.4% FG, 19% from 3.

2010 - Ray Allen flames out in the Finals. He had a historic performance in Game 2 of the Finals but was invisible for the rest of the series. He shot 0/13 in Game 3 and 3/14 in Game 7.

Ray vs. 2010 Lakers in NBA Finals - 14.6 ppg, 36.7% FG, 29.3% from 3.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:12 PM   #25
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
50-90s were the time of bigmen. Now is the time of guards.

I'd probably say it extends a little in the 00's... from 2000-04, up until they changed the rules to free up the perimeter players.

Plus, 00-04 had deep power forward rotation with Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, and C-Webb... with the like of Pau Gasol, Jermaine O'Neal, Elton Brand etc.. not far away either. Also, you had arguably the greatest peak player ever at center in Shaq from 00-02.

While going back to the rest of your post, I do think 00-04 might have had the best mix of superstar guards and superstar big men.

05-present for sure is the time of the guards, clearly. Probably just decade thing, I believe you were going for.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:33 PM   #26
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Robert Parish.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:37 PM   #27
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Sam Jones

(Way more deserving than Robert Parish IMO)
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:59 PM   #28
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

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Old 10-03-2012, 01:02 PM   #29
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Quote:

You are referencing 1994 for those three players, that year was a clear snub for Miller, who was the top scoring guard in the East. In the games following the all-star diss, Miller posted 25 with 9 assists and 5 steals, 25-5-4 and 21 points on 9-11 shooting.

Its amazing to me how ordinary the games are that people point out Reggie having. He responded to the diss with two 25 ppoint game and 21 on good shooting? What are we talking about Ben Gordon or a second ballot hall of famer? Responding to a diss is...Karl Malone dropping 60 on the Bucks because AC Green got the spot over him. Isiah lighting up Stockton for making the dream team. Hakeem vs Drob after he watched him get theMVP. Barkley eating the warriors alive in the playoffs after a big deal was made of Webber dunking on him.

Reggie Miller responds to the diss...with games that wouldnt stand out in an average week for Steve Smith on the Hawks.

Quote:

He then proceeded to lead the Pacers to the Conference Finals and made the all-star team every season the rest of the decade with the exception of 1997 when the Pacers imploded on Larry Brown and did not send a player to the game.

So he made it every year of a brief stretch(except when he didnt)...and those were just about the only ones in 19 years. Not sure what there is to discuss there.

Quote:
Prior to 1994, Miller was not an all-star level guard, he posted good numbers but he hadn't shown the type of player he could be in the postseason for an extended period.

He had not had a team that should be expected to be in the playoffs for an extended period. He didnt learn to shoot or start being clutch in his late 20s.


Quote:
He really burst onto the scene in the 1993 playoffs when he averaged over 30 a game against a Knicks defense that ranked among the all-time greatest in points per possession allowed. In the '94 series he averaged over 30 in the final four games of that battle as well.

Again...it amuses me how little he needs to do to be praised. Tmac puts up 30 a game and loses hes a loser. Reggie does it hes proven something.



Quote:
What do you mean here? What did Hawk, Thunder Dan or Nick the Brick ever do claim superiority to Reggie?

Ask Pauk. He said they were among the great guards who kept Reggie from being top 5 some years.


Quote:

As much as you think Miller gets overrated by today's younger fans or the casual fan 20-somethings, I think you are underrating what he did.

i'll go into that later.

Quote:

The Pacers were relevant for nearly a decade

Far as being known...sure. But they won 55 and up...what...twice? They will not be remembered as one of the best of their time. not even the best who didnt win. Not even...top 5 who didnt win. They are the "Almost doesnt count" posterboys of the 90s Jazz aside.

Quote:
with Miller leading the way with steady efficient 20 a night scoring and relentless away from the ball movement, which was the driving force of the Pacers offense

The Pacers offense wasnt the driving force of the Pacers team...and Reggie was often not the go to player even on that side of the ball. Rik smits played low minutes but when he was on the floor he had the ball more than Reggie did.


Quote:

all while consistently elevating his level of play in the postseason.

Worse youare the more room you have to improve. relative to regular season Reggie elevated his game more than Michael Jordan some years. But when MJ starts out a 98 and goes to a 99....and Reggie starts a 75 and goes to 85...its pretty so what to me.

Reggie elevating his game is prime Vince Carter on an average night.

Quote:
Coaches changed, teammates changed, opponents changed and Miller remained the face of the franchise and the franchise remained a contender.

A contender in that....there is no way in hell they are gonna win...kinda way.
Quote:


Unquestionably Tracy McGrady was a better player than Reggie Miller, but I'd rather have Reggie's career and that's not just because T-Mac had awful teammates in Orlando and played in a super-competitive Western Conference. I know Miller is going to raise his game in the playoffs and I know his game will always help his teammates and never impeded them.

Id rather have Reggies career than Bill Waltons. But....

Quote:


This is a bit of misrepresentation, especially from someone with your knowledge.

That season Indiana also had a bitter, trying to get fired Larry brown coaching them. Traded Mark Jackson (only to get him back from Denver the next year), lost McKey for 30 games and traded away veteran reserves Ricky Pierce and Eddie Johnson, both former sixth men of the year.

Somehow I don't think just Smits missing 10 more games than he did the year prior was the difference.

I wasnt googling the team. I just remember that Smits was out when they missed the playoffs. Far as the rest....total "So what?" material. It happens. If we are gonna start running down the unfortunate things that go into a teams success or lack of it....a lot of guys are gonna move up this list before Reggie does. Look into some of the shit AI dealt with from 99-06. People dont care. Call him a loser.

The pacers didnt have issues worthy of a deep discussion on why that was a poor year. They just...had a bad year. But that dude didnt remember it and is telling me they made it every single season makes it even more obvious what is happening here....

People who were not around just....know Reggies name.

Thats the primary reason hes going on before he should.

People...know his name. Know his name and assume a lot of things that never happened. Like him being considered better than some guys who wouldnt make top 150....

I really dont think my opinions on him are far off. Not compared to these people who dont even remember him.

Larry Brown says hes not a leader and was not their best player. Phil Jackson says he voted Mckey for all star because hes their best player. Seems the other coaches largely didnt think much of Reggie...usually didnt select him. The hundreds of media members clearly didnt either. Only made him all nba twice...and it was third team.

But 20 years later im underrating him for putting him only a little above where reasonable people ranked him and not miles ahead of much better players because the emotion of seeing ESPN specials doesnt do anything to me?

One year the fans give Reggie half a million all star votes. Not enough to start. But more than who the coaches picked. The coaches....NBA coaches....they take Tim Hardaway. Joe Dumars, and Terrel Brandon. This is what NBA coaches choose. 15 years later....im the badguy for saying those guys are better than Reggie. Another year...Reggie 4th in voting. Coaches pass him up in favor of Stackhouse, Houston, Ray Allen and Marbury. Reggie gets less votes than Jeff Hornacek one year...like...60% less. From people watching at the time. The coaches? They selected Detlef from the Pacers. Passed on Reggie.

But 20 years later people who were 5 at the time are gonna tell me off for thinking what just about everyone thought at the time based on what we saw? Tell me im wrong and the coaches who didnt pick him, media who didnt pick him, and Larry Brown and Phil Jackson they are wrong....

Maybe we are. Maybe everyone was. Id just feel better about it if the idea that Reggie was better than all the guys he would be called better than now....came from when people were watching him.

Mark Jackson said recently that Reggie was better than Wade and Jerry West. I wonder if he would have said such a thing while it was all fresh? Nostalgia does something to people.

Last edited by Kblaze8855 : 10-03-2012 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 10-03-2012, 01:11 PM   #30
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Sam Jones for me in this spot. Durant should be voted in the next few spots as well.
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