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Old 10-03-2012, 01:46 PM   #31
G.O.A.T
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Its amazing to me how ordinary the games are that people point out Reggie having. He responded to the diss with two 25 ppoint game and 21 on good shooting? What are we talking about Ben Gordon or a second ballot hall of famer? Responding to a diss is...Karl Malone dropping 60 on the Bucks because AC Green got the spot over him. Isiah lighting up Stockton for making the dream team. Hakeem vs Drob after he watched him get theMVP. Barkley eating the warriors alive in the playoffs after a big deal was made of Webber dunking on him.

Reggie Miller responds to the diss...with games that wouldnt stand out in an average week for Steve Smith on the Hawks.

A fair point, in fact a good point that I'd probably make in your spot. I got those numbers from an SI blurb that mentioned him as the biggest all-star snub that year. As for this part though...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
So he made it every year of a brief stretch(except when he didnt)...and those were just about the only ones in 19 years. Not sure what there is to discuss there.

He made it from '95 to '2000 (excluding '97), and should have in 1994, so essentially during the entire time he was in his prime on a contending team he was an all-star. Yes BJ Armstong, Hawkins, Majerle and an array of other flash in the pan guards like John Starks made one or two teams.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
He had not had a team that should be expected to be in the playoffs for an extended period. He didnt learn to shoot or start being clutch in his late 20s.

He actually did start being clutch in his late 20's as the experience against teams like Detroit and Boston and the development of the team around him put in a better position to succeed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Again...it amuses me how little he needs to do to be praised. Tmac puts up 30 a game and loses hes a loser. Reggie does it hes proven something.

T-MAC almost always played great in the playoffs and that should be praised, but he didn't ever score 30+ on an elite defense with remarkable efficiency. It doesn't mean Miller is a better player, but it is a significant achievement that few if any guards were or since have been able to replicate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Ask Pauk. He said they were among the great guards who kept Reggie from being top 5 some years.

enough said.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Far as being known...sure. But they won 55 and up...what...twice? They will not be remembered as one of the best of their time. not even the best who didnt win. Not even...top 5 who didnt win. They are the "Almost doesnt count" posterboys of the 90s Jazz aside.


They were better than all teams whose best player was a non-elite guard.

That leads me to suspect Miller is closer to elite than his numbers suggest.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
The Pacers offense wasnt the driving force of the Pacers team...and Reggie was often not the go to player even on that side of the ball. Rik smits played low minutes but when he was on the floor he had the ball more than Reggie did.

The offense revolved around Reggie. Smits was a 25 mpg player. Jackson and Davis, the other two big minute guys were not scorers or guys you ran plays for. Smits scored a good number of his points on jumpers are popping or fading off screens he set for Miller. The Davis' got tons of Dunks of slipping down screens when their defender showed too aggressively. Mullin, Best, Eddie Johnson, Rose how many times did they get to spot up for a three while Reggie was running around for 15 seconds trying to find space against a defense that was focused primarily on him.

We don't need to value that the same way. I don't need you to concede anything to me on this, but I have to know you understand what I am saying.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Worse you are the more room you have to improve. relative to regular season Reggie elevated his game more than Michael Jordan some years. But when MJ starts out a 98 and goes to a 99....and Reggie starts a 75 and goes to 85...its pretty so what to me.

Reggie elevating his game is prime Vince Carter on an average night.

Now you're just trying to hurt me.

All I am suggesting is that Miller could have posted better numbers during the regular season, but he saw the bigger picture and knew what would be best for the team. In some ways, from what I have gathered, he did essentially what Isiah Thomas did. Realized he wasn't as good as guys like Jordan, Ewing etc. and that if his team was going to beat their's his teammates were going to need to win their match-ups as often as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
A contender in that....there is no way in hell they are gonna win...kinda way.

They pushed both the '98 Bulls and '00 Lakers to the brink. They really should have beat the Bulls, but Jordan is Jordan.

Overall you're point is a strong one, but I'm trying to put Miller with guys like Barkley and Malone who didn't lead their teams to title's but probably could have. I'm trying to put Miller with guys like Cunningham, Sam Jones, Hal Greer, Dennis Johnson, Joe Dumars. Guys who had at least one elite skill but were not elite players, and could be your best player, but their real strength was being a team player who elevates his game in the big moments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Id rather have Reggies career than Bill Waltons. But....

I'll take Walton's every time. I want to win a title.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
I wasnt googling the team. I just remember that Smits was out when they missed the playoffs. Far as the rest....total "So what?" material. It happens. If we are gonna start running down the unfortunate things that go into a teams success or lack of it....a lot of guys are gonna move up this list before Reggie does. Look into some of the shit AI dealt with from 99-06. People dont care. Call him a loser.

The pacers didnt have issues worthy of a deep discussion on why that was a poor year. They just...had a bad year. But that dude didnt remember it and is telling me they made it every single season makes it even more obvious what is happening here....

The hell they didn't. This is just wrong on your part. That was a screwy season. I remember it well. They traded Jackson that off-season and eventually got him back in a trade but in the meantime they had no established point guard as even veteran Haywood Workman was injured for a good deal of the year. Smits had surgery the previous off-season and missed the start of the year, Mckey got hurt right about when Smits got back, all the while Brown was sulking and claiming he was the problem. When the Pacers tried to extend his contract, he said he needed time to think, he resigned after the season.

P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
eople who were not around just....know Reggies name.

Thats the primary reason hes going on before he should.

People...know his name. Know his name and assume a lot of things that never happened. Like him being considered better than some guys who wouldnt make top 150....

I really dont think my opinions on him are far off. Not compared to these people who dont even remember him.

But that's not why I'm nominating him is it? Not that I can't be wrong, I usually am, just ask my wife.

But I had him 30 spots lower a few, three years ago. I've changed my mind not because of what I don't know but because of what I didn't know, that I do know now. The more I learned about that Pacers team in the 90's the more I came to appreciate Miller's contributions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Larry Brown says hes not a leader and was not their best player. Phil Jackson says he voted Mckey for all star because hes their best player. Seems the other coaches largely didnt think much of Reggie...usually didnt select him. The hundreds of media members clearly didnt either. Only made him all nba twice...and it was third team.

Other than the quotes which mean very little to me once I know the context, this is the strongest argument against Miller and one I understand and accept as right, because it is just facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
But 20 years later im underrating him for putting him only a little above where reasonable people ranked him and not miles ahead of much better players because the emotion of seeing ESPN specials doesnt do anything to me?

It's not your ranking or placement of him, it's how little credit you're willing to concede to him for things he did do because you don't agree with the conclusions other's draw based on those achievements.

Overall though I see and respect your point of view very much on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
One year the fans give Reggie half a million all star votes. Not enough to start. But more than who the coaches picked. The coaches....NBA coaches....they take Tim Hardaway. Joe Dumars, and Terrel Brandon. This is what NBA coaches choose. 15 years later....im the badguy for saying those guys are better than Reggie. Another year...Reggie 4th in voting. Coaches pass him up in favor of Stackhouse, Houston, Ray Allen and Marbury. Reggie gets less votes than Jeff Hornacek one year...like...60% less. From people watching at the time. The coaches? They selected Detlef from the Pacers. Passed on Reggie.

You're not a bad guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Mark Jackson said recently that Reggie was better than Wade and Jerry West. I wonder if he would have said such a thing while it was all fresh? Nostalgia does something to people.

How'd the Warriors do last season?
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Old 10-03-2012, 01:48 PM   #32
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

I can't wait to see how this list shapes up in 5, 10, 15 years from now. Austin Rivers might crack the top 50.
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Old 10-03-2012, 01:52 PM   #33
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Had to write in due to all of the incredible ISH overrating of Reggie Miller. For those of us who saw him play for the entire duration of his career, many of us would have a hard time putting him in the top 75, let alone 55.
From the remaining players; Durant, Parish, Bernard King, Jones, Cunningham, Gilmore, Mcgrady, etc. are all viable choices depending on how you are looking at things.
But I'll go with DURANT, as at the end of the day I feel he will be considered the best player of all remaining.
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Old 10-03-2012, 01:54 PM   #34
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIZARRO
But I'll go with DURANT, as at the end of the day I feel he will be considered the best player of all remaining.

I don't think that matters yet though. If Duran't career ended today he'd be more comparable to McGardy, Mourning and Webber I'd say.
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Old 10-03-2012, 02:08 PM   #35
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Nate 'Tiny' Archibald
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Old 10-03-2012, 02:28 PM   #36
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

In his first 15 years in the league (12 playoff appearances), Reggie averaged under 20PPG once...the year they lost to the Bulls, 19.9PPG.



His career playoff average through 15 years, 12 playoff appearnces and in 109 playoff games: 23.5.



Reggie's playoff average over his last 3 seasons: 11.9PPG. His career playoff average: 20.6PPG.
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Old 10-03-2012, 03:08 PM   #37
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

I don't think I can vote for Sam Jones just yet. I didn't get to see him play live, but based on Russell's characterization of Jones in his books:

a lot of heart and a guy who would always want the ball late in games, but unwilling to constantly dominate
not wanting to reveal all of his ability, to the extent that there was still mystery at the end of his career

it's hard for me to put him above some guys who were always first options and led their teams deep into the playoffs as main cogs. He was probably a top 60-70 player all-time and definitely top 50 in ability (conservatively), but we never got to see all of his talent (though perhaps this was a good call, since his teams won 10 championships in 12 years) so it's hard for me to vote a guy in who didn't leave everything on the court eventually.

I'm going to have to hold back from this vote, since I don't want to slight him though (I have no problem if he makes it in at #55, I just can't be part of it).
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Old 10-03-2012, 04:28 PM   #38
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Vote - Kevin Durant.

His dominant peak and accomplishments surpassed the likes of Ray, Reggie, etc. in my opinion.
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Old 10-03-2012, 05:38 PM   #39
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Tracy McGrady
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Old 10-03-2012, 05:47 PM   #40
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
I don't think that matters yet though. If Duran't career ended today he'd be more comparable to McGardy, Mourning and Webber I'd say.

A bit off-topic, and I've sorta asked you this before, but say Durant plays at a similar level (2012) for the next 5-7 years. He makes 3-5 more All-NBA 1st Teams, wins an MVP, makes another Finals or two or three, wins several more scoring titles BUT never wins a championship. How high would that place him on your list?
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Old 10-03-2012, 06:20 PM   #41
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
Vote - Kevin Durant.

His dominant peak and accomplishments surpassed the likes of Ray, Reggie, etc. in my opinion.

I get what your saying but I feel putting durant this high now is just wrong...hes still getting his career going and putting him above guys like sam jones archibald etc seems wrong since those guys accomplished so much in their careers...it would be like disrespect

like i said I get your point but in about a few yrs We'll def be talking about durant in the top 50 most likely

my vote for now however goes to sam jones
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:27 PM   #42
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlip
Not that I'm voting for him, but I'm still amazed at the fact that Jerry Lucas keeps getting absolutely no votes.

He is the only player not named Wilt or Pettit to have avg. 20ppg and 20rpg in a season. He did it twice. Pettit did it only once. While I don't particularly know that much about his reputation amongst his peers, his resume', on paper, is quite impressive. I do know that he was known as one of the best shooting forwards of the 60's.

1964 NBA Rookie of the Year
1964-65 NBA All-Star Game MVP
NBA champ (1973 Knicks)

7X All star
3X NBA All-NBA (1st)
2X NBA All-NBA (2nd)

Led league in fg% in 1964 (Edged out Wilt)
Was a top 4 rebounder for most of his career. (Normally right behind Wilt and Russell)
What about Neil Johnston?

NBA Champion ('56)
6x All-Star
4x All-NBA First team
1x All-NBA Second team

3x NBA scoring champ
1x NBA rebounding champ
3x NBA field goal percentage leader

Was the scoring and rebounding champ in 1954-55.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:54 PM   #43
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Blaze, your hate for Reggie Miller is the same as Glove's love for Payton/Kevin Johnson.

No one is debating Miller to be a better player than Ray Allen, McGrady, or whoever else is being discussed.

What Miller did was will those teams to victory. No, it wasn't Rik Smits, the Davis Boys, Vern Flemming, Travis Best or your boy Derrick McKey.

Pacers made 4 Eastern Conference Finals that decade, one less then the Knicks.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:57 PM   #44
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
What about Neil Johnston?

NBA Champion ('56)
6x All-Star
4x All-NBA First team
1x All-NBA Second team

3x NBA scoring champ
1x NBA rebounding champ
3x NBA field goal percentage leader

Was the scoring and rebounding champ in 1954-55.
The only thing about Neil is he was one of the players pre-shot clock who didn't translate well when the blacks started to come into the league.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:02 PM   #45
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Default Re: #55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

I do kind of wonder who actually deserves to be ranked higher between Ray and Tmac. I don't think either are in the top 50, both outside of it, but it's still a tough decision.

I've been hard on Tmac ever since he became a Rocket because I hated the way he played there. However, I did love the way Tmac played in Orlando, he was a completely different player really.

I think the same way as HardwoodLegend said in the past, Tmac's spirit/passion for the game was pretty much crushed after the 2003 playoffs and during the 2004 season. The Magic never gave him the help he desperately needed and he was always the one-man show and had to play like superman night in and night out just to get his team into the playoffs.

All that really does to someone is destroy one's spirit/passion. I can relate because recently I feel like I've been in Orlando Tmac's shoes and my spirit is going to be destroyed soon.

I use to criticize Tmac because Kobe, KG, Pierce, Lebron, etc. could continue performing well and motivated despite playing in garbage teams for all those years. I thought that if those guys could do it then McGrady should as well and that McGrady is just mentally weak because he can't. However, I have come to the conclusion that it is not that Tmac is necessarily mentally weak but rather those guys I just listed are mentally strong and they were better than Tmac so it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

I think Tmac should be above Wilkins for the record. Nique shouldn't be in the top 50.

Last edited by StateOfMind12 : 10-03-2012 at 08:04 PM.
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