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Old 10-04-2012, 07:20 PM   #31
Legends66NBA7
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialQue
Thing is, Jordan didn't have a perfect career. He failed multiple times before he started winning. Probably the two players who have had anything close to "perfect" careers are Bill Russell and Magic.

How does Magic have a more perfect career than Jordan ?

Jordan has more individual awards, rings, accolades, and had more impressive title runs by 3-peating with 2 completely different teams.

And when you say Jordan failed multiple times before he started winning... these were the teams he lost too in his career in the playoffs:

1985 Bucks: Very good team
1986 Celtics: One of the greatest teams of all-time, NBA Champions
1987 Celtics: NBA Finalist, great team
1988 Pistons: NBA Finalist
1989 Pistons: One of the greatest teams of all-time, NBA Champions
1990 Pistons: NBA Champions
1995 Magic: NBA Finalist

Also, Jordan had less help than Magic did when he started of his career. Magic started his career with reigning 5-time MVP in Kareem, better than any player Jordan ever played with. I get what your saying if your talking clearly about winning and getting to the Finals... then I understand. I just don't think he had a better career than Jordan overall.

I agree with Bill Russell, though. While, many people exaggerate his HOF's... truth is, if it wasn't for his greatness and the legendary 8-peat, more than half of them don't make it in the HOF. Bob Cousy and John Havlicek would the only ones considered to get in the HOF because of their individual play and pioneering/legacy.
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:26 PM   #32
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

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Originally Posted by bokes15
I'm trying to figure out how Lebron has already supplanted Kobe Bryant because of 1 championship. I mean, people have pretty much thrown out Kobe in an all-time great discussion because of the fact that Lebron is "bigger, stronger, and faster" as if that should be a deciding factor in a Lebron vs. Jordan discussion.

Of course they're going to disregard Kobe, they know nothing about basketball prior to '03, when Lebron signed with the Cavs. If you listen to them, Kobe is the luckiest SOB to have ever lived. Everything he's done is all cuz of luck and circumstance, not skills. But when it comes to Lebron, if you listen to his idiotic fans, he's already equal to MJ and needs to win one more title to surpass him. And that' supposedly all skills, no luck or circumstance
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:40 PM   #33
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

I've said this before and I will keep saying it. Basketball personalities (i.e. coaches and former players) do not determine greatness the way fans do. As fans we go to b-ball reference and see how many titles, "rings as the man", MVPs, all defensive teams, statistical titles, and other accolades a player has and then access greatness. Basketball personalities don't do that. They don't say, "Well player X has 2 more "titles as 'the man' and one more MVP than player Y. So player X is better." That's just not what they do. Obviously a player has to have had an impressive career, but b-ball personalities weigh heavily their perceptions of players' "on the court" display of talent and abilities probably more than a couple of additional notches added to the players' resume".
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:42 PM   #34
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

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Originally Posted by OldSchoolBBall
Lebron already has more failures and lows than Jordan had in his entire carer, especially in the playoffs. And at that level, it matters.

This. Jordan pretty much had a perfect career. Of course, at the beginning his team wasn't good enough but the statistical dominance, 6 rings and 6 FMVPs (in addition to the global impact he had on basketball) will be very difficult to overcome.

Duncan and Kobe have no chance to be better than MJ. Their prime just wasn't anywhere near as dominant.
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:44 PM   #35
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlip
I've said this before and I will keep saying it. Basketball personalities (i.e. coaches and former players) do not determine greatness the way fans do. As fans we go to b-ball reference and see how many titles, "rings as the man", MVPs, all defensive teams, statistical titles, and other accolades a player has and then access greatness. Basketball personalities don't do that. They don't say, "Well player X has 2 more "titles as 'the man' and one more MVP than player Y. So player X is better." That's just not what they do. Obviously a player has to have had an impressive career, but b-ball personalities weigh heavily their perceptions of players' "on the court" display of talent and abilities probably more than a couple of additional notches added to the players' resume".

No reasonable NBA fan does that, cuz there's no "special wing" in the HOF for titles like that. It's either a title or nothing. That's something bandwagon Lebron fans do, to try and diminish Kobe's career. Nice try though
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:59 PM   #36
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

LeBron has a chance, but the rest of his career has to go perfectly.

4-peat
4 x FMVP
5 x MVP
33,000+ points
10,000+ assists and rebounds
DPOY

As crazy as those accomplishments are they are well within the realm of reality for LeBron. If he plays another 11 years (38 years old, 20 years played) he should easily get the points and rebounds, but the assists might be harder to do depending on his role in his 30's.

A 4 peat is a much more impressive feat than a 3peat since it has only happened once in NBA history.

This can all be ruined if he leaves the Heat for any other team than Cleveland. He would then be a ring chaser.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:28 PM   #37
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Bron has never been faster or quicker than MJ. Never.

As for strength? Bron is bigger, I don't know if he's STRONGER. People always comment on MJ's unusual strength for his size.

And it doesn't always come from sheer muscle mass, or size.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:51 PM   #38
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialQue
Thing is, Jordan didn't have a perfect career. He failed multiple times before he started winning. Probably the two players who have had anything close to "perfect" careers are Bill Russell and Magic.

No, Jordan didn't have failures. He lost. They're two different things. Jordan never had the playoff blunders and poor games/series Lebron has had.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:58 PM   #39
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolBBall
No, Jordan didn't have failures. He lost. They're two different things. Jordan never had the playoff blunders and poor games/series Lebron has had.
Jordan played what 20 seasons? Jordan went to the finals 6 times in those 20 years meaning he failed 14 times (70% of the time). LeBron's played 9 years and been to the finals 3 times meaning he has failed 6 times 67% of the time. LeBron > Jordan by three percent...

It is not a detriment to lose in the finals. Just look at Jerry West one of the 15 greatest of all time, and ask him if he would trade losing in the finals for first/second round exits.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:00 PM   #40
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolBBall
No, Jordan didn't have failures. He lost. They're two different things. Jordan never had the playoff blunders and poor games/series Lebron has had.

Never ?

Come on... Jordan is a better playoff performer than LeBron , but to say he never had the playoff blunders and poor games/series like LeBron is a joke. Yes he did.

However, it's minimal and LeBron does have more worse series. That's the difference for me and there is achance LeBron might have another bad series in the playoffs, if not more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgodfather1
Jordan played what 20 seasons? Jordan went to the finals 6 times in those 20 years meaning he failed 14 times (70% of the time).

Jordan played 15 seasons... 6 of 15 and 7 of those years his team had a legit cast to win a title. That's an incredible conversion rate.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:00 PM   #41
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgodfather1
Jordan played what 20 seasons? Jordan went to the finals 6 times in those 20 years meaning he failed 14 times (70% of the time). LeBron's played 9 years and been to the finals 3 times meaning he has failed 6 times 67% of the time. LeBron > Jordan by three percent...

It is not a detriment to lose in the finals. Just look at Jerry West one of the 15 greatest of all time, and ask him if he would trade losing in the finals for first/second round exits.

You continue to miss the point. Show me how many outright bad games and series Jordan had in the playoffs in his first 7-8 seasons. Now show me Lebron's. The lists will be quite different.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:04 PM   #42
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolBBall
You continue to miss the point. Show me how many outright bad games and series Jordan had in the playoffs in his first 7-8 seasons. Now show me Lebron's. The lists will be quite different.

I agree with this, but you can't say Jordan 'never' had bad/poor game or series like you did in your previous post.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:06 PM   #43
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmt
This. Jordan pretty much had a perfect career. Of course, at the beginning his team wasn't good enough but the statistical dominance, 6 rings and 6 FMVPs (in addition to the global impact he had on basketball) will be very difficult to overcome.
Exactly.

Plus his career has the built in mystique of like say a Barry Sanders. Guy retired just a 1,000 or so yards from the all-time rushing title. Which for him was a little less than one full season. He walked away that close to it, and it took Emmitt Smith extra years to pass it, and with a much better offensive line.

By walking away that close, he will forever be attached to the award, while never actually holding it. He walked away at the right time to retain a mystique, to be a legend. Everyone will always comment on how he could've got it if he wanted it.

Same goes for MJ. The man was the UNDISPUTED best player in basketball from '89 - '98. Actually should've been the MVP award winner in '89, '90, '93, and '97.

The man walked away from the sport at the pinnacle of his dominance of it, where he had an unquestionable strangle hold on the throne. Left after just 8 seasons, after a three peat, became a living legend ... got a statue REAL QUICK. His play, his entertainment value bought the city of Chicago alone a new stadium.

He left two years of his absolute peak / prime in limbo, by essentially being gone for two full seasons, which add even more mystique to his legend.

We could assume (and it is very probable) that there would've been MVPs, Championships, Finals MVPs, All NBA 1st Teams, Scoring Titles, All NBA 1st Team Defense, Steals Leader, etc. added to his already stud like resume.

He could've REALISTICALLY been the first alpha dog superstar since the Russell / Cousy Celtics to lead a team to 4x straight championships. A feat unheard of ... and still yet to be duplicated.

If he played in '94 and the full season of '95, his career point totals would have him sitting pretty near the top next to Kareem, or above him. Along with probable addittional MVPs.

His career as it stands is the best, and then you throw in the missing years of his prime / peak, and even the years of his twilight (1999, 2000, and 2001) and you have a career resume that will never be duplicated.

If he played for the Bulls in '99, 2000, and 2001 ... given his averages in '98 as a 35 year old (28 ppg), add in residual regression. I say in '99 he averages 27 ppg, 2000 he averages 26 ppg, and in 2001 averages 25 ppg.

And mind you, in 2002 as a 39 year old and before that devastating knee injury he was putting up 25 / 5 / 5 ... so these numbers aren't asinine or pulled from the anus.

And don't give me the Kobe stan response of he wouldn't have been able to hold up. MJ was more durable than Kobe. As durable as current LeBron, and only had two major injuries in his career. One a freak accident as a young man, and another a knee injury as an old as dirt man in a young man's game.

With those years he's EASILY the all-time leader in scoring. So as it stands his current resume is GOAT, then throw in the mystique of PROBABLE hypotheticals and it isn't even CLOSE.

Guy already should've had like 7 or 8 MVPs, then include the '94 and '95 seasons. Maybe add 2 - 3 rings to his total, an MVP or two and then the addition of the twilight years where he'd no longer be the best in the league, but still ELITE and putting up big numbers compared to league averages. It's borderline INSANE how great this man was. His athleticism dominated the league, his skill dominated the league, his will power dominated the league, and his intelligence dominated the league.



He re-invented himself and re-molded his game, time and time again to stay relevant, and dominant. There will be no one like this man ever again, and as great as LeBron is ... he doesn't have a lot of the stuff MJ had in his overall arsenal. And I absolutely feel LeBron is the greatest player SINCE MJ. Yes, even better than Shaq / Duncan / KG / Kobe / Wade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmt
Duncan and Kobe have no chance to be better than MJ. Their prime just wasn't anywhere near as dominant.
That too. No one's prime / peak touches MJs. His prime arguably lasted from '89 - '98. Almost a full decade. And if he played, I'm pretty sure he still would've been the best player in the game in the lock out shortened 1999 season as well.

Last edited by Money 23 : 10-04-2012 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:15 PM   #44
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgodfather1
Jordan played what 20 seasons? Jordan went to the finals 6 times in those 20 years meaning he failed 14 times (70% of the time). LeBron's played 9 years and been to the finals 3 times meaning he has failed 6 times 67% of the time. LeBron > Jordan by three percent...

It is not a detriment to lose in the finals. Just look at Jerry West one of the 15 greatest of all time, and ask him if he would trade losing in the finals for first/second round exits.
Lebron didn't just lose though.. he lost in an embarassing, choking manner. He definitely lowered his case with those performances.

Quote:
Charles Barkley- post-"The Decision"
He’ll never be Jordan. This clearly takes him out of the conversation. He can win as much as he wants to.

this quote is damn right.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:21 PM   #45
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

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Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
Never ?

Come on... Jordan is a better playoff performer than LeBron , but to say he never had the playoff blunders and poor games/series like LeBron is a joke. Yes he did.

However, it's minimal and LeBron does have more worse series. That's the difference for me and there is achance LeBron might have another bad series in the playoffs, if not more.



Jordan played 15 seasons... 6 of 15 and 7 of those years his team had a legit cast to win a title. That's an incredible conversion rate.
LeBron's played in 9, and two years of those had a legitimate cast to win, with another two seasons being arguable.

I'm not trying to say LeBron is better than Jordan, but I just find it laughable when people dismiss the chance that he can surpass Jordan. For all we know the Heat rip off 5 or 6 in a row with LeBron winning 5 or 6 MVP awards in a row. We just can't know at this point in time. Sit back, relax, and enjoy what we have in front of our eyes now what is in our minds.

Edit: Instead of what is in our minds.
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