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Old 10-05-2012, 02:14 PM   #91
AlphaWolf24
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Money 23
Just a re-post as to why I consider MJ the GOAT, and why his already legendary resume has built in hypotheticals that would've put him even further away from the nearest competitor.


- sons like a bunch of if' and but's....Those of us who actually watched MJ's whole career actually know his place.

- He was the greatest player of the 90's....and probably the greatest player at getting his own shot from anywhere he wanted.

was he the greatest scorer ever? - NO

was he the greatest shooter ever? - NO

was he the greatest defensive player ever? - NO

was he the greatest winner ever ever? - NO ( Not even close actually)

was he the most impactful player ever? - NO ( he actually impacted his teams win/loss column less then any of the top 10 players alltime)

was he the greatest dunker ever? - NO

was he the geratest passer ever? - NO

was he one of the most exciting players ever? - absolutley...and he moved alot of shoes.



but your tired rants about "MJ was the bestest GOAT ...he left 2 years on the table"....is just silly.

He was one of the greatest players ever...no doubt....but I watched his whole career and know too much basketball to say he was better then Magic , or Bird or other alltime greats.

heck...without Pippen( and Phil becoming the true greatest NBA coach ever)..he was real close to becoming a baldheaded Dominique Wilkins.

Last edited by AlphaWolf24 : 10-05-2012 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:51 PM   #92
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

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Originally Posted by AlphaWolf24

He was one of the greatest players ever...no doubt....but I watched his whole career and know too much basketball to say he was better then Magic , or Bird or other alltime greats.


So out of genuine interest, where would he fall on your personal all-time list? I recall you saying to me some time ago, that Bird shouldn't be over Kobe( can't recall if you said that about Magic). Above you say that Jordan wasn't better than Bird or Magic, which would mean you also feel Kobe is above Jordan. But I've never seen you outright declare that Kobe is better than Jordan, just in the same ballpark.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:08 PM   #93
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

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Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
So out of genuine interest, where would he fall on your personal all-time list? I recall you saying to me some time ago, that Bird shouldn't be over Kobe( can't recall if you said that about Magic). Above you say that Jordan wasn't better than Bird or Magic, which would mean you also feel Kobe is above Jordan. But I've never seen you outright declare that Kobe is better than Jordan, just in the same ballpark.


- cot damn...why do the Jordan Mouskateer's get all butthurt when anyone compares or says someone is better?

- I was replying to the silly post above me....Jordan is one of the greatest ever..."by acclamation ( majority opinion)" he is the greatest...but that's the only criteria someone could use......not a bunch of hypothetical "what if's"...or other made up stats......that's all I was saying.

- and once again...my personal alltime lists....does not include players I never watched ( live or followed)...only an idiot would try to rank players they never watched or followed closely.

I never watched Wilt , Russell , Oscar or West...trying to act like I know if they are better then _______ or __________ is silly..( just as I was trying to explain about the post above mine....Poster was trying to use silly criteria to justifyu MJ as bestest)

- From the players I did watch since the early 80's...he probably is Number 1...I could easily see why someone would put Magic ahead of him ( Magic simply impacted his teams more)...

and I don't think one could place Kobe above Jordan yet...but both are very similar players with very similar results...
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:14 PM   #94
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaWolf24
- cot damn...why do the Jordan Mouskateer's get all butthurt when anyone compares or says someone is better?

- I was replying to the silly post above me....Jordan is one of the greatest ever..."by acclamation ( majority opinion)" he is the greatest...but that's the only criteria someone could use......not a bunch of hypothetical "what if's"...or other made up stats......that's all I was saying.

- and once again...my personal alltime lists....does not include players I never watched ( live or followed)...only an idiot would try to rank players they never watched or followed closely.

I never watched Wilt , Russell , Oscar or West...trying to act like I know if they are better then _______ or __________ is silly..( just as I was trying to explain about the post above mine....Poster was trying to use silly criteria to justifyu MJ as bestest)

- From the players I did watch since the early 80's...he probably is Number 1...I could easily see why someone would put Magic ahead of him ( Magic simply impacted his teams more)...

and I don't think one could place Kobe above Jordan yet...but both are very similar players with very similar results...

Butthurt? What about my post implies I was offended by anything you said? I was simply curious about where he fell on your all-time ranking, taking into account various things you've said before. Why do you automatically go on the defensive? Fukk, didn't I say 'out of genuine interest'?

For the record, while I personally think Jordan is the best I've seen, I'm not one of those who thinks he's several cuts above guys like Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc. To me they're on the same plane. I don't look at Jordan as being in his own tier of greatness beyond those guys.

Last edited by Dragonyeuw : 10-05-2012 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:27 PM   #95
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaWolf24
- sons like a bunch of if' and but's....Those of us who actually watched MJ's whole career actually know his place.

- He was the greatest player of the 90's....and probably the greatest player at getting his own shot from anywhere he wanted.

was he the greatest scorer ever? - NO

was he the greatest shooter ever? - NO

was he the greatest defensive player ever? - NO

was he the greatest winner ever ever? - NO ( Not even close actually)

was he the most impactful player ever? - NO ( he actually impacted his teams win/loss column less then any of the top 10 players alltime)

was he the greatest dunker ever? - NO

was he the geratest passer ever? - NO

was he one of the most exciting players ever? - absolutley...and he moved alot of shoes.



but your tired rants about "MJ was the bestest GOAT ...he left 2 years on the table"....is just silly.

He was one of the greatest players ever...no doubt....but I watched his whole career and know too much basketball to say he was better then Magic , or Bird or other alltime greats.

heck...without Pippen( and Phil becoming the true greatest NBA coach ever)..he was real close to becoming a baldheaded Dominique Wilkins.

ISH at its best

That bolded part is going into that "Stupidest things said at ISH" thread
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:59 PM   #96
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

This is the thing that people do not realize.... Jordan had the complete package, both mental and physical.

On one hand, we have Kobe... who has Jordan's killer mentality, he wanted to kill his opponents and had the balls to put everything on his shoulders, basically go down shooting with no fear of failure. But he was never as physically gifted as Jordan, I'm not saying head to head... but in respect to their peers and eras. Jordan was probably quicker, jump higher, stronger, and bigger hands, etc. This is Kobe's limitation... he always tries to achieve more than he is capable off, hence the lower efficiency.

On the other hand we have Lebron, who is physical freak. I would say more of a freak than Jordan when he first came into the league. But what Lebron lacks is the all in the head... he has this fear of failure, it could be from the product of the world's expectations, but he genuinely cares to much about his perception, like getting the tape confiscated when he got dunked on? Are you kidding me, Jordan would of wanted to kill that guy instead of trying to hide the evidence. That might be the difference between old school and new school mentality... Basically the only thing that can stop Lebron from achieving GOAT status is himself, and usually that is the hardest to overcome. He already ruined himself in my eyes and many others by jumping ship in Cleveland. Tell yourself whatever you want, but that is a HUGE failure in my eyes... joining forces with other top players from your ERA, that is something someone as competitive as Jordan would NEVER DO.

My point is, when it comes to the OVERALL package... Jordan is untouchable..
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:04 PM   #97
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

AlphaPup24 is so cute ...

Jordan not being better than Bird and Magic. That's too funny.

No need to even validate it.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:33 PM   #98
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Money 23
Just a re-post as to why I consider MJ the GOAT, and why his already legendary resume has built in hypotheticals that would've put him even further away from the nearest competitor.
True story, MJ is the GOAT not because he was the best scorer, not because he is the most decorated, not because he is the most complete. MJ is the goat because he was the most consistent, managed to convince everyone watching in the 90s that he was unbeatable.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:34 PM   #99
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

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Originally Posted by SpecialQue
Jordan isn't god. I'm pretty sure another player WILL pass him up at some point.

The odds of someone passing Jordan is like someone winning the 6 ball lottery twice.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:47 PM   #100
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

It's funny how Kobe fans try to run down Jordan's achievements, and in doing so they actually push Kobe further down the "all-time great" rankings by exposing his short-comings.

P.S. Jordan never missed the playoffs in his prime, lost a NBA Finals game at home after being up 24 in the first half or lost a deciding NBA Finals game by 39 points. He also won his first title without an all-star teammate. Kobe fans, please rebut.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:54 PM   #101
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Realist
This. NBATV is trying to sell the current NBA. They can't keep paying guys to say, "No, the best has already come. Sorry you missed out. But stick around for some of these other guys."

Jordan was so good that... if Lebron becomes better (level of play, not accolades) EVERYONE will know it. Even people that won't want to admit it will have to. He's just not there right now. The NBA and it's television partners are selling the current NBA, not the NBA from 20 years ago. Around the Horn, PTI, Sports Reporters, Halftime shows all exist because arguments and teaser quotes are arranged behind the scenes. You can't get people to watch by saying the best has already happened, stay tuned anyway. How many people are going to watch because they want to hear Barkley explain himself? How many would tune in to hear him say the status quo "Jordan's the best. These guys aren't on that level, but they're good so watch them anyway."?

These are great points Realist, but I also think the blame goes to these "Halftime Shows" for insisting on even comparing past players to current ones in the first place. You can't start a topic asking "Can Lebron or Durant ever match Larry Bird's legacy"?, have a panelist say "I believe Lebron's already past Bird's legacy". and not expect Bird fans to speak up about it.

These shows do this because they know it's a sure shot way to keep both old and new school fans interested in the game; old schoolers watching Lebron to see if he really does measure up to Bird, and new schoolers believing there's no way Bird can match what Lebron's currently doing. It's a "win-win" business (key word) for them.
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:02 PM   #102
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
He also won his first title without an all-star teammate.

There's nothing to rebut about the Kobe statements and nobody with their head on straight think Kobe > Jordan...

But what's this about ? Yeah, Pippen wasn't an all-star that year. Doesn't mean he was any less of a player, nor does it mean he wasn't an all-star talent.

Pippen was better in 1991 than he was 1990, when he did make the all-star team. And the numbers back that up too. Besides, he could have been replaced on the team instead of Hersey Hawkins that year too when Bird got injured.

Also, clearly stepped his game more in the playoffs in 1991, puts up 22/9/6/2.5/1 on 50%. That's also better than Pippen's 1990 playoff run. So really, what if he didn't make the all-star team that year ? Doesn't make his contributions any less and doesn't make Pippen any less of a player.

I know your trying to get at the Kobe stans, but that point is way off when not looked into context.
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:07 PM   #103
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Lebron is the only one that has any shot to surpass MJ, so if you want another GOAT, you better hope Lebron can do it cause I doubt anyone else will come close any time soon.
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:13 PM   #104
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
There's nothing to rebut about the Kobe statements and nobody with their head on straight think Kobe > Jordan...

But what's this about ? Yeah, Pippen wasn't an all-star that year. Doesn't mean he was any less of a player, nor does it mean he wasn't an all-star talent.

Pippen was better in 1991 than he was 1990, when he did make the all-star team. And the numbers back that up too. Besides, he could have been replaced on the team instead of Hersey Hawkins that year too when Bird got injured.

Also, clearly stepped his game more in the playoffs in 1991, puts up 22/9/6/2.5/1 on 50%. That's also better than Pippen's 1990 playoff run. So really, what if he didn't make the all-star team that year ? Doesn't make his contributions any less and doesn't make Pippen any less of a player.

I know your trying to get at the Kobe stans, but that point is way off when not looked into context.

I'm not trying to run down Pippen, he was one of my favorite players growing up. It's just interesting that this forum is one of the only places that tries to elevate Pippen to an elite first option in the attempt to belittle Jordan's accomplishments. And yes, he wasn't an all-star in the year the Bulls won their first title so technically Jordan won without an all-star teammate that year.

I like that you mentioned context though, do Kobe stans look at the context of Pippen's rookie/early career stats and his lack of leadership on teams he played on without Jordan as a teammate? No, they don't. They're the republicans of NBA fans.
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:20 PM   #105
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripthekik

ISH at its best

That bolded part is going into that "Stupidest things said at ISH" thread


you must have never watched Nique in the mid 80's....Most fans thought Nique was better then MJ....or at least equals.

I remember still having arguements who was a better dunker/finisher in traffic..anything Jordan could do...Dominique could do..and Nique's Hawks looked to be a legit contenders ...meanwhile Jordan's teams looked lost.

anyone saying Jordan and Nique were not comparible from 84' - 89' are kidding themselves. ( or there are basketball illiterate kids who never saw Nique play)
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