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Old 10-05-2012, 05:53 PM   #121
Nevaeh
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
See I don't understand this logic because since when was not making the Finals better than making the Finals?

I understand if you want to give Lebron a blackmark for his 2011 Finals but why his 2007 Finals?

Nobody expected him to go there and nobody really even expected him and his team to compete in that series. It is serious revisionist history to blame Lebron for his 2007 Finals loss.

Jordan's resume is practically perfect but my GOAT ranking is not based on resume/accomplishments. It is based on how good you are and Lebron could very well be better than MJ ever was.

Dude, it's not just about losing in the Finals, but it's how he lost in the Finals. He should have went out with guns blazing, being more assertive and treating each Finals appearance as if he would never get back to that level again. Did you see the numbers Durant and Westbrook were putting up in the Finals? They were young players like Lebron once was, but you can tell they were at least "fighting".


Jordan, even in rounds where he didn't make it to the Finals, fought tooth and nails to at least try to get there. That's the difference. When he did get there, Jordan didn't f@ck around or become an almost invisible Role Player when his team needed him the most.

You said GOAT in that first post. I responded with what I think separates "Great" from "GOAT".
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:53 PM   #122
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
See I don't understand this logic because since when was not making the Finals better than making the Finals?

I understand if you want to give Lebron a blackmark for his 2011 Finals but why his 2007 Finals?

Nobody expected him to go there and nobody really even expected him and his team to compete in that series. It is serious revisionist history to blame Lebron for his 2007 Finals loss.

Jordan's resume is practically perfect but my GOAT ranking is not based on resume/accomplishments. It is based on how good you are and Lebron could very well be better than MJ ever was.


yeah I never understood Jordan stan logic when it comes to this...

Lebron leads his team to the Finals at 22 years old....but loses
Jordan leads his team to a Losing record.....and gets swept

Jordan stan logic = that means Jordan is better because he never lost in the Finals..
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:58 PM   #123
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevaeh
Dude, it's not just about losing in the Finals, but it's how he lost in the Finals. He should have went out with guns blazing, being more assertive and treating each Finals appearance as if he would never get back to that level again. Did you see the numbers Durant and Westbrook were putting up in the Finals? They were young players like Lebron once was, but you can tell they were at least "fighting".


Jordan, even in rounds where he didn't make it to the Finals, fought tooth and nails to at least try to get there. That's the difference. When he did get there, Jordan didn't **** around or become an almost invisible Role Player when his team needed him the most.

You said GOAT in that first post. I responded with what I think separates "Great" from "GOAT".


so what about disappearing vs the Celtics...and only scoring 4 points in the 2nd half of the deciding game 3??..or quitting against the Pistons in 88' ad 89'..

serously 18 points in 36 minutes of a deciding game....and yet Jordan stans call Lebron Passive?
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:58 PM   #124
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaWolf24
- he played Great in Games 4 and 5 ( the deciding game 5 he was the difference)..Game 4 he played 30 minutes and had 15 points 5rebs and 2 Blk's...

no impact ?...especially for a rook?..RUserial?

- he started all of the games vs the Pistons.

recap:

By the end of the season Pippen was good enough to start in the playoff's...and come up huge for the Bull's in the Game 5 vs the Cavs...to help get them past the first round...

for the first time in what ...like 18 seasons

Dude, I was just talking about starting. Yes his Game 4 was good, but it wasn't Game 5. The Bulls made the adjustment. Look at the earlier games, like Game 1. No impact.

Who said Pippen didn't help them get past the first round ? I'm just saying Oakley played a bigger role.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlip
OK...Lebron performed inexcusably horribly in the '11 Finals. We get that. But seriously are we going to hold his legacy responsible for losing in the '07 Finals in which he was literally the leader at the age of 22 of a team that few people outside of Cleveland even expected to get that far? Would his legacy be better if he had dominated the '07 ECF but lost there in order to maintain a good Finals win %?

LeBron didn't perform well at all for his standards that year in the Finals either. Legacy is hurt either way, can't down play it either way. He didn't play well outside of one Game in the ECF. IMO, LeBron's 2007 run is overrated.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:01 PM   #125
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
Dude, I was just talking about starting. Yes his Game 4 was good, but it wasn't Game 5. The Bulls made the adjustment. Look at the earlier games, like Game 1. No impact.

Who said Pippen didn't help them get past the first round ? I'm just saying Oakley played a bigger role.



LeBron didn't perform well at all for his standards that year in the Finals either. Legacy is hurt either way, can't down play it either way. He didn't play well outside of one Game in the ECF. IMO, LeBron's 2007 run is overrated.


so if Lebrons legacy is hurt for leading histeam t the Finals and Losing....does that mean Jordan's Legay should be severly damaged by leading his team to 38 win season and get swept in the first round?

getting swept should be a major negative vs losing in the Finals.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:03 PM   #126
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlip
OK...Lebron performed inexcusably horribly in the '11 Finals. We get that. But seriously are we going to hold his legacy responsible for losing in the '07 Finals in which he was literally the leader at the age of 22 of a team that few people outside of Cleveland even expected to get that far? Would his legacy be better if he had dominated the '07 ECF but lost there in order to maintain a good Finals win %?

See my 2nd post responding to StateOfMind12
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:04 PM   #127
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaWolf24
so if Lebrons legacy is hurt for leading histeam t the Finals and Losing....does that mean Jordan's Legay should be severly damaged by leading his team to 38 win season and get swept in the first round?

getting swept should be a major negative vs losing in the Finals.

Who said it wasn't a negative to Jordan ?

He wasn't perfect, but he played better overall in the playoffs and finals. Series by series.
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Old 10-05-2012, 08:34 PM   #128
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Lebron 2007 Finals: 22/6/6 FG35% 3P20% FT 69% TO 6


Jordan Finals: 33/6/6 48%
Jordan Playoffs:33/6/6 49%
Jordan Career:33/6/6 49%
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:46 AM   #129
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaWolf24
so if Lebrons legacy is hurt for leading histeam t the Finals and Losing....does that mean Jordan's Legay should be severly damaged by leading his team to 38 win season and get swept in the first round?

getting swept should be a major negative vs losing in the Finals.
The problem is standards.
Lebron was good enough to bring his team to the final, yet perform miserably when compared to his standards.

Jordan might have been swept in the first round, but that was all he could do with that team and he still played 100%.

That's why losing in the finals look bad. If you lose but play out of your mind, ok. If you get to the finals and you choke and lose...
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Old 10-06-2012, 05:14 AM   #130
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

The thing that makes Bron scary is the fact that's he is 6'8 and 260 pounds. Bron can play and defend PG-PF and even some nights C. And Bron is a great defender with his size. Magic was never a great defender and his versatility was more due to the offensive end and the ability to grab boards. Bron in every way is EPIC in terms of versatility AND a freak athlete on top of it.

Bron in terms of great scorers is along with Big O the most willing passer of the bunch. MJ was a great passer in his own regard. But Bron has a sixth sense with his passing ability. Bron isn't the killer MJ is scoring, but Bron is still third in career scoring average in NBA history! Which means Bron is still CLEARLY an alpha dog. If Bron was the level of alpha dog that MJ was, then he would be CLEARLY better than MJ right now peak value wise. But the MAIN LIST is GOAT. That list supercedes peak value all day every day. And to top MJ GOAT wise is a huge undertaking. It's like trying to top Ali in boxing or Ruth in baseball.

Even pro wrestling wise as great as Austin and Rock were, Hogan is still regarded by most as GOAT. Peak value is one thing, but GOAT dictates your legacy. I'm inclined to argue big guys like Wilt or Kareem over MJ GOAT wise instead of perimeter guys. But Bron still has a shot if he gets his resume up to par. Bron will most likely put up INSANE career numbers of like 30,000+ points and 10,000+ assists. Something that NOBODY has come close to doing.

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Old 10-06-2012, 07:36 AM   #131
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

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Originally Posted by Asukal
What part of Lebron's game is better than Jordan's to merit this statement?

When it comes to offense and defense, Jordan was better. Not by a staggering margin but still a clear gap.

Not really, not anymore. Every facet of their game is comparable now. Lebron is probably even more gifted, now, defensively in that he can guard more/bigger players. He can play almost any role, offensively and defensively, in one package, better than any player in NBA history; and do it to such a standard as to be comparable to the guys who do it as specialists. The guy is a freak. It's one thing to still consider Jordan superior; it's another thing to dismiss the comparison out of hand. The former is fair enough, the latter is idiocy and hero-worship blocking rationality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Realist
This. NBATV is trying to sell the current NBA. They can't keep paying guys to say, "No, the best has already come. Sorry you missed out. But stick around for some of these other guys."

Jordan was so good that... if Lebron becomes better (level of play, not accolades) EVERYONE will know it. Even people that won't want to admit it will have to. He's just not there right now. The NBA and it's television partners are selling the current NBA, not the NBA from 20 years ago. Around the Horn, PTI, Sports Reporters, Halftime shows all exist because arguments and teaser quotes are arranged behind the scenes. You can't get people to watch by saying the best has already happened, stay tuned anyway. How many people are going to watch because they want to hear Barkley explain himself? How many would tune in to hear him say the status quo "Jordan's the best. These guys aren't on that level, but they're good so watch them anyway."?

The same thing happened when Jordan was playing and Bird/Magic left. And I am sure Bird/Magic favoured from when Wilt, etc, left and so on. It's nothing new.

It's not that everyone will know when Lebron is better unanimously as if it's some universal truth that we'll all see at the same time...it's that Jordan's legacy has become such a myth that the only thing that will shake that is someone being so much better than Jordan that it'll be undeniable.
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:46 AM   #132
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

lol @ the half-baked posters trying to diminish the fact of Lebron putting on some of the best performances in playoff history in order to carry his team to franchises first Finals (which was probably the worst team to ever be in a Finals).. just because he lost there.. and he was also 21-22....

Thats like cursing out the VW Golf driver for coming 2nd in a Formula 1 race...

Last edited by pauk : 10-06-2012 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:43 AM   #133
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

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Originally Posted by stallionaire
You're a ****ing idiot if you don't think LeBron can pass Jordan.

Also, I love Open Court. Gonna DVR this whole season. good lookin out OP.
Pass him on what? More titles? 6-1 and LBJ is heading into his tenth season. Needs a whole lot of titles to catch MJ. MJ has 4 seasons were he scored a lot more with better efficiency. What exactly must LBJ do to pass MJ?
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:02 AM   #134
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

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Originally Posted by LeBird
Lebron can be better, and can be a GOAT candidate. I've said it before: ability-wise he's better than Jordan was right now; it's just a matter of winning and being incredibly consistent. I don't foresee him being the clear GOAT though. I think such a player will be a 1 in 10 billion type deal. Even if he does win 6-7 titles, 6-7 MVPs, etc, it'll always be a debate.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:24 AM   #135
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Default Re: Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaWolf24
you must have never watched Nique in the mid 80's....Most fans thought Nique was better then MJ....or at least equals.

I remember still having arguements who was a better dunker/finisher in traffic..anything Jordan could do...Dominique could do..and Nique's Hawks looked to be a legit contenders ...meanwhile Jordan's teams looked lost.

anyone saying Jordan and Nique were not comparible from 84' - 89' are kidding themselves. ( or there are basketball illiterate kids who never saw Nique play)
Bullshit, MJ was already being compared to all-time grats by 89, up there with Bird and Magic, no serious basketball fan thought Nique, as great as he was, was on the level of MJ, Magic or Bird.
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