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Old 01-16-2013, 07:11 PM   #61
juju151111
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Ultimate Defender

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calabis
And with Jordan in 1991 he avg 21/7/7 on 50%, so why are people acting like he played out of his freakin mind when MJ left?
1994>>1991 Pip. Its not all about pretty stats. 1991 Pippen first year of pressure and finals. The addition of Toni and Grant getting better in 94 showed great results. Pippen had a ego and messed up when he sat on the bench when Phil called a play.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:54 PM   #62
Calabis
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Ultimate Defender

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju151111
1994>>1991 Pip. Its not all about pretty stats. 1991 Pippen first year of pressure and finals. The addition of Toni and Grant getting better in 94 showed great results. Pippen had a ego and messed up when he sat on the bench when Phil called a play.

Didn't say 91 was a greater version of Pip, but acting like as soon as Jordan left he became some superhero is crazy. Pippen was a great damn ball player, but this dude put him in the Magic/Bird realm. Pip was one of my favorite players, actually modeled my game after his at a lower level of course.....but Pippen was not a better help defender than MJ and on the ball defense was slightly better than championship run MJ. MJ was a monster defensively earlier before Pip developed into a starter/contributor, its well known from coaches and players from that time.

I do agree, Pip was just more valuable because he could guard more positions than MJ, therefore making him a better more versatile defender.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:56 AM   #63
KOBE143
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Ultimate Defender

Its kind of sad that Pippen, Duncan, Kobe would probably not get a DPOY award even tho they're the best if not one of the best defender in their primes..
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:31 AM   #64
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Ultimate Defender

Quote:
Originally Posted by KOBE143
Its kind of sad that Pippen, Duncan, Kobe would probably not get a DPOY award even tho they're the best if not one of the best defender in their primes..

It's sad for Pippen and Duncan because they were actually deserving. Those guys had to anchor their teams defensively in their prime. Kobe has never been on that level in impact or consistency.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:06 AM   #65
Ne 1
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Ultimate Defender

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calabis
And with Jordan in 1991 he avg 21/7/7 on 50%, so why are people acting like he played out of his freakin mind when MJ left?

For 1 ¾ of seasons we got to see what a prime Scottie Pippen could do without Michael Jordan.

1993-94:

*All-NBA first team
*All-Defensive first team
*All-star game MVP
*3rd in MVP voting (1st amongst non big men)
*4th in DPOY voting (1st amongst non big men)
*In SI coach's poll he was the the only player to receive at least one vote in five categories—last shot, starting a franchise, best defender, best passer and player worth paying to see.
*He ranked first in the best defender and player you would most like to see categories in that poll
*4th in PER (1st among non-centers)
*7th in defensive rating
*8th in defensive win shares (3rd if he played the entire season)
*9th in overall win shares (4th if he played the entire season)
*8th in scoring
*2nd in steals
*19th in assists
*23rd in rebounding
*His team was 4-6, on pace for 33 wins and the lottery without him, and 51-21 on pace for 58 wins and the #1 seed with him.

Raw stats: 22.0 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 2.9 spg

1994-95

*All-NBA first team
*All-Defensive first team
*7th in MVP voting (1st amongst perimeter players and would have been top 5 overall if MJ did not come back)
*2nd in DPOY voting (should have won it)
*Selected 'Best All-Around Player' in the NBA in a poll of players, coaches, trainers and general managers conducted by USA Today."
*7th in PER (2nd among perimeter players)
*1st in steals
*1st in defensive rating
*2nd in defensive win shares
*9th in overall win shares
*12th in scoring
*top 25 in rebounding
*top 25 in assists

Raw stats: 21.4 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 5.2 apg, 2.9 spg

Pippen was the only player to make both the All-NBA first team and the All-Defensive first team in both seasons (he would do so again in 1996).

However, these stats do not tell the whole story. His numbers slipped considerably during the final fifth of the season that Jordan played. Before Jordan returned he was averaging 21.9 ppg (10th in the NBA), after Jordan's return he slipped to 19.7 ppg. With Jordan 6.9 rpg, without Jordan 8.7 (19th in the league). Unlike with conventional stats, it is difficult to determine what his pre-Jordan PER is. If we assume Jordan's return reduced his PER by just 10%--certainly a reasonable assumption given the decline in his scoring and rebounding—he would have a PER of 24.9, good enough for 6th in the league behind Karl Malone's 25.1 and Charles Barkley's 25.2. PER is biased in favor of big men. It is not surprising that the top 5 in PER in 1995 were all centers and PF's. Stockton narrowly beat Pippen for the highest PER among perimeter players, but Pippen was ahead of him before MJ came back and Pippen's stats declined.

Maybe that was just a fluke. After all, it was just 17 games. Let's compare Pippen before, without, and the once again with Jordan. Let's look at his two previous seasons with MJ and his two seasons when MJ came back and compare them to his time without MJ.

Points per game: 21.0, 18.6, 22.0, 21.9/19.7, 19.4, 20.2
Rebounds per game: 7.7, 7.7 8.7, 8.7/6.9, 6.4, 6.5
Assists per game: 7.0, 6.3, 5.6, 5.2, 5.9, 5.7
Steals per game: 1.9, 2.1, 2.9, 2.9, 1.7, 1.9
PER: 21.5, 19.2, 23.2, 22.6, 21.0, 21.3
Defensive rating: 102, 104, 97, 98, 101, 101
Offensive rating: 114, 108, 109, 110, 116, 115

So his numbers were better across the board without MJ, even those that MJ had little or no impact on such as rebounding, assists, steals, and defensive rating.

*Career highs in bold, league lead underlined
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:28 PM   #66
97 bulls
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Ultimate Defender

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calabis
Didn't say 91 was a greater version of Pip, but acting like as soon as Jordan left he became some superhero is crazy. Pippen was a great damn ball player, but this dude put him in the Magic/Bird realm. Pip was one of my favorite players, actually modeled my game after his at a lower level of course.....but Pippen was not a better help defender than MJ and on the ball defense was slightly better than championship run MJ. MJ was a monster defensively earlier before Pip developed into a starter/contributor, its well known from coaches and players from that time.

I do agree, Pip was just more valuable because he could guard more positions than MJ, therefore making him a better more versatile defender.
He was an MVP and DPOY caliber/Franchise type player. Thats the point. I think its also fair to note, Pippens stats went UP despite league avgs going down. On avg NBA teams took 7150 shots for the season in 91. In 94, the leagues team avg WENT DOWN to 6900 roughly. Thats about 3 less shot attempts per game per team. If the FG attempts stayed the same, then Pippens avg goes up a point or two. Then factor in that FTs dont count as a FG attempt.
On avg teams took 100 less shot attempts per seasons. I think its safe to say under 91 circumstances, 94 Pippens stats would look like 23.5/9.3/7 per game. Along with everything else he did.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:57 PM   #67
Round Mound
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Ultimate Defender

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne 1
For 1 ¾ of seasons we got to see what a prime Scottie Pippen could do without Michael Jordan.

1993-94:

*All-NBA first team
*All-Defensive first team
*All-star game MVP
*3rd in MVP voting (1st amongst non big men)
*4th in DPOY voting (1st amongst non big men)
*In SI coach's poll he was the the only player to receive at least one vote in five categories—last shot, starting a franchise, best defender, best passer and player worth paying to see.
*He ranked first in the best defender and player you would most like to see categories in that poll
*4th in PER (1st among non-centers)
*7th in defensive rating
*8th in defensive win shares (3rd if he played the entire season)
*9th in overall win shares (4th if he played the entire season)
*8th in scoring
*2nd in steals
*19th in assists
*23rd in rebounding
*His team was 4-6, on pace for 33 wins and the lottery without him, and 51-21 on pace for 58 wins and the #1 seed with him.

Raw stats: 22.0 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 2.9 spg

1994-95

*All-NBA first team
*All-Defensive first team
*7th in MVP voting (1st amongst perimeter players and would have been top 5 overall if MJ did not come back)
*2nd in DPOY voting (should have won it)
*Selected 'Best All-Around Player' in the NBA in a poll of players, coaches, trainers and general managers conducted by USA Today."
*7th in PER (2nd among perimeter players)
*1st in steals
*1st in defensive rating
*2nd in defensive win shares
*9th in overall win shares
*12th in scoring
*top 25 in rebounding
*top 25 in assists

Raw stats: 21.4 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 5.2 apg, 2.9 spg

Pippen was the only player to make both the All-NBA first team and the All-Defensive first team in both seasons (he would do so again in 1996).

However, these stats do not tell the whole story. His numbers slipped considerably during the final fifth of the season that Jordan played. Before Jordan returned he was averaging 21.9 ppg (10th in the NBA), after Jordan's return he slipped to 19.7 ppg. With Jordan 6.9 rpg, without Jordan 8.7 (19th in the league). Unlike with conventional stats, it is difficult to determine what his pre-Jordan PER is. If we assume Jordan's return reduced his PER by just 10%--certainly a reasonable assumption given the decline in his scoring and rebounding—he would have a PER of 24.9, good enough for 6th in the league behind Karl Malone's 25.1 and Charles Barkley's 25.2. PER is biased in favor of big men. It is not surprising that the top 5 in PER in 1995 were all centers and PF's. Stockton narrowly beat Pippen for the highest PER among perimeter players, but Pippen was ahead of him before MJ came back and Pippen's stats declined.

Maybe that was just a fluke. After all, it was just 17 games. Let's compare Pippen before, without, and the once again with Jordan. Let's look at his two previous seasons with MJ and his two seasons when MJ came back and compare them to his time without MJ.

Points per game: 21.0, 18.6, 22.0, 21.9/19.7, 19.4, 20.2
Rebounds per game: 7.7, 7.7 8.7, 8.7/6.9, 6.4, 6.5
Assists per game: 7.0, 6.3, 5.6, 5.2, 5.9, 5.7
Steals per game: 1.9, 2.1, 2.9, 2.9, 1.7, 1.9
PER: 21.5, 19.2, 23.2, 22.6, 21.0, 21.3
Defensive rating: 102, 104, 97, 98, 101, 101
Offensive rating: 114, 108, 109, 110, 116, 115

So his numbers were better across the board without MJ, even those that MJ had little or no impact on such as rebounding, assists, steals, and defensive rating.

*Career highs in bold, league lead underlined


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Old 01-17-2013, 02:20 PM   #68
CHi1PriDe
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen: Ultimate Defender

Quote:
Originally Posted by I<3NBA
I would say Kobe is the ultimate defender. he is able to stop his 4 teammates from scoring.

Not gonna lie, this was pretty funny
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