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Old 10-11-2012, 06:51 AM   #31
blacknapalm
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Default Re: Is Lance Armstrong the biggest cheater in sports of all time?

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Originally Posted by gigantes
i get all that, and i agree that it sucks, but as i said... my concern is that the public and cycling body is left with an impression that this is all about one guy. to make it about one guy and stop there is what i basically meant by "half-assed."

of course, if they went after everyone who cheated to the nth degree, they'd probably have to wipe out almost the entire list of winners for all the major events going back to the very founding of the tour. so maybe they do have to stop with armstrong and call it a day in terms of going after past champions. or maybe they just should have just let this one go, considering how bad it makes everyone in cycling look.

i guess we'll see how many fans cycling loses after this. maybe most of them just won't care, and maybe the sport doesn't need casual fans in order to function.

from my experience, cycling thrives off loyalty. the dedicated riders ride with clubs and those clubs are associated w/ different stores. those stores usually have deals with sponsors. once you ride with a club, you tend to buy your gear almost exclusively from them. they, in turn, try to give you deals for being a frequent customer.

that's not to say the casual fans don't matter. they do but i think that has more to do with the TV deal side of things. does it take a dominant american winning to lure in the casual crowd? what you want is a new generation to remain interested in cycling so the sponsors can survive. it's sort of a domino effect. when sponsors pull out, teams collapse. anyway, not a business expert...just the way i see it.

as far as USADA spending millions to go after one guy...you can definitely argue that it's a waste of resources but i guess they felt they had to make an example. hard to find a bigger figure than lance and considering he lived in america, they were able to probably rely on more resources locally.

i personally don't care much but that's only because i've felt that whole era was marred. it doesn't come as a shock to me really and i still enjoy watching it, for the drama and the strategy involved. do i prefer a cleaner race? for sure. it's so much better for the sport's success in the long run. sponsors don't want to be associated with doping. it just looks bad and is too risky. that's why i hope today's peloton is mostly clean and i do believe that right now. there's always going to be dopers but i'd like to think it's not on a systematic level.

btw, they gave leipheimer a six month ban for his testimony. i thought that was pretty petty. this isn't about full accountability. it's about going after one group.

Last edited by blacknapalm : 10-11-2012 at 07:04 AM.
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:07 AM   #32
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Default Re: Is Lance Armstrong the biggest cheater in sports of all time?

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Originally Posted by blacknapalm
from my experience, cycling thrives off loyalty. the dedicated riders ride with clubs and those clubs are associated w/ different stores. those stores usually have deals with sponsors. once you ride with a club, you tend to buy your gear almost exclusively from them. they, in turn, try to give you deals for being a frequent customer.

that's not to say the casual fans don't matter. they do but i think that has more to do with the TV deal side of things. does it take a dominant american winning to lure in the casual crowd? what you want is a new generation to remain interested in cycling so the sponsors can survive. it's sort of a domino effect. when sponsors pull out, teams collapse. anyway, not a business expert...just the way i see it.

as far as USADA spending millions to go after one guy...you can definitely argue that it's a waste of resources but i guess they felt they had to make an example. hard to find a bigger figure than lance and considering he lived in america, they were able to probably rely on more resources locally.

i personally don't care much but that's only because i've felt that whole era was marred. it doesn't come as a shock to me really and i still enjoy watching it, for the drama and the strategy involved.

btw, they gave leipheimer a six month ban for his testimony. i thought that was pretty petty. this isn't about full accountability. it's about going after one group.
makes perfect sense to me.
why can't you say something batshit crazy from time to time, 'napalm?

for me, it's just all so discouraging / borderline depressing. as a casual fan of the sport. as an american. as someone who likes to see a phoenix rise from its ashes. as someone who respects charitable athletes.




bummer, man. that's a f--kin' bummer.

Last edited by gigantes : 10-11-2012 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:10 AM   #33
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Default Re: Is Lance Armstrong the biggest cheater in sports of all time?

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Originally Posted by gigantes
makes perfect sense to me.
why can't you say something batshit crazy from time to time, 'napalm?

for me, it's just all so discouraging / borderline depressing. as a casual fan of the sport. as an american. as someone who likes to see a phoenix rise from its ashes. as someone who respects charitable athletes.




bummer, man. that's a f--kin' bummer.

ya, i can understand your POV. i'm a sucker for ' feel good' sports stories too and lance's was up there with some of the best.

haha, i can say some off the wall stuff when i get sauced. general talking out my ass type stuff...ya know. i keep some of my dumb ideas/theories to myself. otherwise, there's plenty i know jack shit about so i guess it's a good idea when i know to be quiet

Last edited by blacknapalm : 10-11-2012 at 07:20 AM.
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:37 AM   #34
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Default Re: Is Lance Armstrong the biggest cheater in sports of all time?

Well apparently there was a team effort in the cheating so i can't single him out.


But i'm definitely having a laugh at all the morons that are crying foul because this looser and cheater was finally expose.

It was suspicious all along, you either believed he was more than human or was doped, now with all the evidence you have to be brain dead to still support this looser.
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Old 10-11-2012, 10:23 AM   #35
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Default Re: Is Lance Armstrong the biggest cheater in sports of all time?

its so annoying there are still so many Americans that make excuses for him, and now a lot are blaming the ones who told on him, rather than Lance himself. i can't stand blind homers especially when they will prop Lance for being clean for so many years blaming the doping agencies for constantly testing him, then once this comes out they'll jump to other excuses like "everyone cheats so it doesn't matter" or "he didn't test positive"

sad thing is they should be the most offended since they were blatantly lied to the most
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:42 PM   #36
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Default Re: Is Lance Armstrong the biggest cheater in sports of all time?

My biggest problem with it all is it does nothing to change the sport. All they've done is single out American riders because it's an American agency heading the investigation and handing out the discipline. In a predominatelly european sport where doping or cheating is the norm and not the exception all they've done is addressed one small group that will have zero effect on 85% of the riders. There needs to be a total overhaul of the sport from all angles not just one. I know the Europeans nab one guy or two per year but it's drops in the bucket when it comes to cycling.

Armstrong passed each and every test, hundreds of tests when he was riding as did he fellow teammates and with the recent revelations of how much he was supposedly cheating that just shows how badly the tour is overseeing it's own event.

They're either totally incompetent in Europe or turning a blind eye and that's where my problem lies. It's not fair for everyone to pass tests in Europe time and time again then Americans to be retro-actively singled out and punished by a US based agency with better resources and a stronger sense of fair play.

I'm not making excuses for Armstrong or any of the US riders, I'm just not comfortable with the different levels of scrutiny involved here
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:47 PM   #37
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Default Re: Is Lance Armstrong the biggest cheater in sports of all time?

goat cheater, got away with it for so long and won 7 tour de france in the process
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Old 10-11-2012, 03:11 PM   #38
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Default Re: Is Lance Armstrong the biggest cheater in sports of all time?

Failed drug test or it didn't happen.
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Old 10-11-2012, 03:54 PM   #39
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Default Re: Is Lance Armstrong the biggest cheater in sports of all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daily
My biggest problem with it all is it does nothing to change the sport. All they've done is single out American riders because it's an American agency heading the investigation and handing out the discipline. In a predominatelly european sport where doping or cheating is the norm and not the exception all they've done is addressed one small group that will have zero effect on 85% of the riders. There needs to be a total overhaul of the sport from all angles not just one. I know the Europeans nab one guy or two per year but it's drops in the bucket when it comes to cycling.

Armstrong passed each and every test, hundreds of tests when he was riding as did he fellow teammates and with the recent revelations of how much he was supposedly cheating that just shows how badly the tour is overseeing it's own event.

They're either totally incompetent in Europe or turning a blind eye and that's where my problem lies. It's not fair for everyone to pass tests in Europe time and time again then Americans to be retro-actively singled out and punished by a US based agency with better resources and a stronger sense of fair play.

I'm not making excuses for Armstrong or any of the US riders, I'm just not comfortable with the different levels of scrutiny involved here

they can't be turning a blind eye considering how many cyclists they've caught, and you can't all of a sudden start being critical of them not overhauling the whole sport when the controversy is about the one guy so many acted like was super human and clean has been outed after so many tests and suspicions. its like changing the subject. not trying to attack you or anything but you do seem very bias in how you keep trying to make excuses for Lance or blame others when the current story is Lance being caught pretty definitively that he was doping.
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Old 10-11-2012, 04:12 PM   #40
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Default Re: Is Lance Armstrong the biggest cheater in sports of all time?

Godzuki you missed the point, the point is (to me) you have one agency unfettered passing down judgement on a small group of participants because they can only punish the American riders involved. This agency has no involvement with the tour or in eupropean cycling yet they are passing down judgement based on testimony alone, no actual failed tests from the tour. Like I said i'm not making excuses for any of the riders including Armstrong, I'm being critical of the enforcement system that is clearly flawed

Lepeheimer's statement today


Quote:
Today, I accept responsibility and Usada's sanctions for participating in the dirty past of cycling. I've been racing clean for more than 5 years in a changed and much cleaner sport. I hope that my admission will help to make these changes permanent.

Until recently—or maybe even until today—when people thought about doping, they thought about a guy, by himself, using banned substances to get ahead. What people didn't realize—what I didn't realize until after I was already committed to this career—was that doping was organized and everywhere in the peloton. Doping wasn't the exception, it was the norm.

When I was a 13-year-old kid, my dream was to ride the Tour de France. I fully devoted my life to that goal. I left home as a teenager, passed on a college degree, moved to Europe at 19 and lived in hostels with roommates who didn't speak my language.

Having made sacrifices for my dream, several years after I turned pro, I came to see cycling for what it was: a sport where some team managers and doctors coordinated and facilitated the use of banned substances and methods by their riders. A sport where the athletes at the highest level—perhaps without exception—used banned substances. A sport where doping was so accepted that riders from different teams—who were competitors on the road—coordinated their doping to keep up with other riders doing the same thing.

I regret that this was the state of affairs in the sport that we love and I chose as my career. I am sorry that I was forced to make the decisions I made. I admit that I didn't let doping deter me from my dream. I admit that I used banned substances.

I know that learning this will disappoint many of my fans and friends and I am sorry that the sport and I have let you down.

Right or wrong, in my mind the choice was "do it or go home." For me that was not a choice.


People will be disappointed and say I was wrong, that I should have chosen differently, and am just making excuses. I made the decision I made. I don't offer this description of the sport as an excuse, simply as an explanation of the context and reason for my decision. I won't lie about it—I have to own it—I accept responsibility for my decision.

I could have come forward sooner. But would that have accomplished anything—other than to end my career? One rider coming forward and telling his story in the face of cycling's code of silence would not have fixed a problem that was institutional.

When Usada came to me and described a solution—where my admission could be part of a bigger plan that would make the positive changes we've seen in recent years permanent—I said "I need to be involved." I don't want today's 13 year olds to be discouraged by their parents from dreaming about one day riding the Tour de France.

Thanks to better testing and a shift in the culture of the sport, cycling has been much cleaner for a number of years. The new generation of riders is not faced with the decisions we were. By taking responsibility for what we have done, my generation will make sure it stays that way.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...603746526.html
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Old 10-11-2012, 04:18 PM   #41
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Default Re: Is Lance Armstrong the biggest cheater in sports of all time?

I was listening to an interview with I'm guessing the guy that was his 'best friend' and teammate at some point. From what he was saying I took it that doping was the consensus in the sport. Sounded like all the top riders did it and you had to to keep up, obviously to win 7 titles in a field of cheats is still an accomplishment even if you're cheating right? And if you will be banned if caught cheating, people really expect that he shouldn't have been so adamant that he wasn't a cheat? So he should have said "yes I'm cheating, but so are all of the other riders out there" I didn't hear much about other riders doing that...
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Old 10-11-2012, 04:25 PM   #42
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Default Re: Is Lance Armstrong the biggest cheater in sports of all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzuki
its so annoying there are still so many Americans that make excuses for him, and now a lot are blaming the ones who told on him, rather than Lance himself. i can't stand blind homers especially when they will prop Lance for being clean for so many years blaming the doping agencies for constantly testing him, then once this comes out they'll jump to other excuses like "everyone cheats so it doesn't matter" or "he didn't test positive"

sad thing is they should be the most offended since they were blatantly lied to the most

I don't following cycling, don't care for it at all and I'm not American. But the excuses everyone cheats seems quite reasonable from this. If you are going to take testimonial evidence, which is what they are using to prove he cheated. Then within those testimonies of him cheating they are saying that nearly every top rider was also cheating... So if that form of evidence is reason enough to believe against Armstrong, surely it is enough to argue a case(excuse) for him also?
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Old 10-11-2012, 04:29 PM   #43
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Default Re: Is Lance Armstrong the biggest cheater in sports of all time?

To me the thing about it is, as people have said a large volume of those cyclists were doping. He is being scrutinized for being the BEST among the cheaters. That's the only thing I don't like about "scandals" like this one where hundreds of athletes are involved but only the best among them are really looked upon like a villian. At the end of the day, even with the doping he still had to put in a ton of work to get where he's at. Sucks that he has to be the one they are making an example out of.
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:48 PM   #44
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Default Re: Is Lance Armstrong the biggest cheater in sports of all time?

I just pray nothing like this ever comes out in the NBA. I couldn't care less about cycling, but this still depresses me for some reason.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:00 AM   #45
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Default Re: Is Lance Armstrong the biggest cheater in sports of all time?

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Originally Posted by plowking
To be honest, hes just riding a bike. Who really cares?



Does this also mean less dudes in lycra clogging up my cafes?
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