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Old 10-13-2012, 06:11 PM   #31
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Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

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Originally Posted by tpols
99 was probably the weakest year in the nba in the past 30-40 years.

2011-2012 waves hello
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:11 PM   #32
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Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

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Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
Grant Hill's MVP runner up season... was 99 right?

25.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg on 56.5 TS%. Not to mention Hill's always been a respectable/good defender, although not as good as he has been the last 5-6 years. Penny on the other hand was a mediocre defender who could be classified as average at best.

Penny was an awesome and unique talent but he can't touch prime Hill. As for Pippen his numbers may not be quite as good as peak Hill BUT he's a top 3 perimeter defender of all time and has a case for the top spot in that regard, that alone puts him above Penny IMO.

Penny is one of those players that have become insanely overhyped long after they are gone. I watched him and he was very very gifted and good. That being said his prime was extremely short lived and outside of getting carried by young Shaq didn't do much to impress me. People act like he's Lebron but forget that he only had what 4 seasons as a top caliber player, then vanished? By comparison Tmac and Vince Carter who people act like were a flash in the pan had at leasy 7-8 seasons at the highest level at their position.



This is incorrect. Hardaway was clearly a better defender than Grant Hill. Grant Hill was no more than decent back then, and Penny was very much a good defender. You have that one backwards.


Hardaway is one of those players where revisionist history has taken over. The lack of credit for his defense is an example. Penny Hardaway was considered the best PG in the NBA, and Stockton was still in his prime. Hardaway reaching his prime would have been better than any PG in the league today. The guy scored 22 a game and his stats don't do him justice. He didn't dominate the ball to rack up 7APG. Like early Magic, the assists don't bear out the reality of his playmaking and his vision. He was a great passer, but his vision was where he stood out.


Hardaway was 1st Team All-NBA in his 3rd season (3rd in MVP voting), but also the year prior, in only his 2nd season. He beat out Gary Payton, just as he would the next year, when Payton was DPOTY and led his team to the 2nd best record in the league behind the 72win Bulls.


Penny Hardaway was incredible.
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:13 PM   #33
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Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

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Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
BTW Penny was the better playoff performer no doubt although he choked in 99. I shouldn't make it sound like it's not debatable but when defense+efficiency is factored in I prefer Hill strongly over Penny.
He actually didn't play that bad. He had two really bad games and two really good games in the series. It kind of just balanced out. Honestly, when you look at playoff series averages, you have to look at game by game instead of just total averages to get a better view.

But, Penny's peak was in 1996, not 1999 so it's kind of moot. It would be like saying Tmac sucked in the playoffs because he sucked in the 2007 playoffs but Tmac was past his prime and was a pretty good playoff performer for the most part.
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:17 PM   #34
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Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

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Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
I put a question mark because I wasn't sure which year it was. I personally think 99 was his best year though and that's why I used it. Worse APG but 4+ ppg more and better defense. Nobody seems to be factoring how much better of a defender Hill was than Penny BTW.

Because I don't think it was that big of a difference. I was a young fan then, and since then I've seen a few full games of theirs in youtube and stuff, so i am no expert here but Penny was an above average defender and Hill was an above average defender to good defender. Not a huge difference.

I don't know, i'd take Penny overall for his offensive prowess. Hill is very close though, with his better D and rebounding giving him a very good argument.
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:19 PM   #35
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Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

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Originally Posted by tmacattack33
Because I don't think it was that big of a difference. I was a young fan then, and since then I've seen a few full games of theirs in youtube and stuff, so i am no expert here but Penny was an above average defender and Hill was an above average defender to good defender. Not a huge difference.

I don't know, i'd take Penny overall for his offensive prowess. Hill is very close though, with his better D and rebounding giving him a very good argument.

Not huge but worth noting man. LOL at Woah saying Penny was clearly the better defender and calling me the revisionist. At no point in either players career was Penny the better defender. Maybe only slightly worse but not equal or better.
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:25 PM   #36
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Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

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Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
Not huge but worth noting man. LOL at Woah saying Penny was clearly the better defender and calling me the revisionist. At no point in either players career was Penny the better defender. Maybe only slightly worse but not equal or better.



Penny was the better defender. Hill was not a particularly good defender back then. He even jokes about it now. Hill was simply a player on defense. He was never above average until he got to Phoenix.



Penny came into the league above average. He played good defense in the post and had great feet on the perimeter. He fought thru screens, had great lateral movement, and stayed in front of his man. He also used his wingspan very well and got a lot of steals, man to man.


No, you're wrong here. Penny Hardaway was a better defender than a no-more than average Grant Hill.
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:30 PM   #37
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Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
Penny was the better defender. Hill was not a particularly good defender back then. He even jokes about it now. Hill was simply a player on defense. He was never above average until he got to Phoenix.



Penny came into the league above average. He played good defense in the post and had great feet on the perimeter. He fought thru screens, had great lateral movement, and stayed in front of his man. He also used his wingspan very well and got a lot of steals, man to man.


No, you're wrong here. Penny Hardaway was a better defender than a no-more than average Grant Hill.

Hill was not an all NBA defender early in his career but he was an above average defender, Penny wasn't. I never once said Penny was a poor defender I said he was average or slightly above average where as Hill was better.
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:32 PM   #38
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Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

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Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
Hill was not an all NBA defender early in his career but he was an above average defender, Penny wasn't. I never once said Penny was a poor defender I said he was average or slightly above average where as Hill was better.


But it's not accurate. What's more, that was not the general opinion. The general opinion was that Hill was not aggressive enough and needed to become a better defender, because he had the tools to be good.


Penny was considered a very strong man-to-man defender on the perimeter, able to guard in the post, get steals, and had great shot-blocking instincts, maximizing his athleticism.
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:35 PM   #39
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Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
But it's not accurate. What's more, that was not the general opinion. The general opinion was that Hill was not aggressive enough and needed to become a better defender, because he had the tools to be good.


Penny was considered a very strong man-to-man defender on the perimeter, able to guard in the post, get steals, and had great shot-blocking instincts, maximizing his athleticism.

Again we may perceive it different and remember it differently but I disagree. I give Grant Hill the defensive and efficiency edge as well as the scoring edge.
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:37 PM   #40
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Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

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Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
Again we may perceive it different and remember it differently but I disagree. I give Grant Hill the defensive and efficiency edge as well as the scoring edge.



I think Hill had the potential to be better than Pippen, because of the scoring ability. He had the sickest handles. He could have become the 2nd best SF ever (tho Lebron would come along).


But thinking about it now (I hadn't before), I think Penny was probably better. He didn't fall off. Those injuries killed him quick. Like Hill, he came back in Phoenix, but he was never again elite. I think he could have become the 2nd best PG ever.
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:40 PM   #41
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Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
I think Hill had the potential to be better than Pippen, because of the scoring ability. He had the sickest handles. He could have become the 2nd best SF ever (tho Lebron would come along).


But thinking about it now (I hadn't before), I think Penny was probably better. He didn't fall off. Those injuries killed him quick. Like Hill, he came back in Phoenix, but he was never again elite. I think he could have become the 2nd best PG ever.

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Old 10-13-2012, 08:09 PM   #42
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Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

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Originally Posted by Clippersfan86



I know. I think Chris Paul is certainly gearing down that track, and I think Penny would have primed out better...a lot to say. I didn't predict it back then, but I knew he was special. Now, with some time passed, I think I can analyze. I think so.
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Old 10-13-2012, 09:16 PM   #43
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Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

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Originally Posted by Clippersfan86

I don't think that's a huge leap to make.

If you look at his assist numbers (7 per game), maybe it does look like one, but Penny was a better passer than the 7 assists per game show.

And I'm guessing the journalists back then recognized that, as he made All-NBA First Team both of his prime years...over Gary Payton in 1995 and over both Stockton and Payton in 1996.
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Old 10-13-2012, 09:46 PM   #44
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Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

1. Scottie Pippen - far the the better defender among the three and slightly better offensively
2. Penny Hardaway - top 5 player in the late 90s, consider to be the next Jordan.. Cant believe Shaq cant win a chip with this player..
3. Grant Hill - almost equal to Penny but always failed to advance in the first round.. He's the Tmac of the 90s..
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Old 10-14-2012, 12:48 AM   #45
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Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

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Originally Posted by pauk
1. Grant Hill (come on now, he was on his way to maybe be the Lebron before Lebron, i remember Jordan comparing his game to him in 1999 where grant averaged 26-7-5 and saying he passed the torch to him and so on, he was only getting better, then the injury happened)

2. Scottie Pippen

3. Penny Hardaway


But i was more of a Penny fan, one of the smoothest/fluid games i ever seen and playing PG at 6'7 made it even sexier...

When i think about it all these players were pretty damn similar, athletic point-forwards that could do everything...

How does that even make sense? That year his scoring went up, his rebounding and assists were at their lowest since his rookie year. Besides Grant Hill on Pistons under Doug Collins had free reign to do whatever the hell he wanted. Through 96-98 that is why his assist are at their highest...he basically had the ball in his hands all the time and could do whatever he wanted, but that is nonsense that he was a Lebron before Lebron when other parts of his game were diminishing as he started scoring more. That 2000 season was also the worse he had ever been defensively. Lebron has only gotten better defensively, so that comparison is just a bunch of nonsense. It's true with a lot players frankly...when they start scoring more other parts of their game suffer....and other parts of Hills game suffered. Frankly I think people are wrong about him defensively at least as far as 96-98 he was a good defensive player, not Scottie Pippen good obviously, but I'd put him in that good range.
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