Re: Rank ISH's top 15 NBA Players of All-Time in offense, defense, and rebounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by fpliii
Here's the list from Deuce's thread:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Lebron James
12. Moses Malone
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
EDIT: I'd rank from 1-15, but any system is fine
I decided to take the instructions in the original post a step further and assign a number ranking 0-100 for each player, for each category.
0 = terrible for a top 15 player
50 = average for a top 15 player
100 = perfect for a top 15 player
***Forewarning****
-Intangibles are not being counted here
-Rankings based on 7 year prime
-I did my best to separate rebounding from defense so that great rebounders aren't rewarded twice, but it can be tough.
-Don't be alarmed by the general "low" ratings. I used a very tough scale in order to differentiate between players of this caliber; A 50-60 on this scale translates to high 80s to low 90s on a traditional scale.
-A lot of thought went into these rankings, but they are by no means perfect.
-I did my best to assign each player an accurate letter grade based on my scaling criteria for that particular category, and only with regards to that category. The overall cumulative score did not factor in to my decisions, though I do calculate it at the end.
So, here's my interpretation
Code:
Offense
1. Magic Johnson: 96
2. Larry Bird: 94
3. Michael Jordan: 94
4. Oscar Robertson: 83
5. Shaquille O'Neal: 79
6. Kobe Bryant: 79
7. Lebron James: 79
8. Kareem Abdul Jabbar: 63
9. Wilt Chamberlain: 63
10. Jerry West: 55
11. Hakeem Olajuwon: 43
12. Julius Erving: 41
13. Tim Duncan: 40
14. Moses Malone: 31
15. Bill Russell: 17
Defense
1. Bill Russell: 100
2. Hakeem Olajuwon: 82
3. Wilt Chamberlain: 75
4. Tim Duncan: 74
5. Michael Jordan: 68
6. Kareem Abdul Jabaar: 64
8. Jerry West: 54
7. Kobe Bryant: 48
9. Shaquille O'Neal: 46
11. Lebron James: 44
10. Julius Erving: 39
12. Oscar Robertson: 32
13. Moses Malone: 22
14. Larry Bird: 18
15. Magic Johnson: 13
Rebounding
1. Wilt Chamberlain: 85
2. Bill Russell: 84
3. Moses Malone: 80
4. Tim Duncan: 75
5. Hakeem Olajuwon: 74
6. Shaquille O'Neal: 73
7. Kareem Abdul Jabbar: 72
8. Larry Bird: 56
9. Magic Johnson: 54
10. Julius Erving: 52
11. Lebron James: 50
12. Oscar Robertson: 49
13. Michael Jordan: 47
14. Kobe Bryant: 39
15. Jerry West: 27
Cumulative Total
1. Wilt Chamberlain: 223
2. Michael Jordan: 209
3. Bill Russell: 202
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar: 200
5. Hakeem Olajuwon: 199
6. Shaquille O'Neal: 198
7. Tim Duncan: 188
8. Lebron James: 173
9. Larry Bird: 168
10. Kobe Bryant: 166
11. Magic Johnson: 164
11. Oscar Robertson: 164
13. Jerry West: 136
14. Julius Erving: 134
15. Moses Malone: 133
***My thoughts on the cumulative total***
-Wilt is slightly too high, though within range. Given that his weakness is mainly mental, I'm not overly surprised.
-I'm surprised that Russell ended up as high as he did
-Larry and Magic are far too low - their defense did them in here.
-Hakeem did surprisingly well, perhaps I'm overrating some part of his game - 42 off, 82 def, 74 reb.
-I was torn on whether or not to include Erving's ABA years. In the end I decided to use them -this somewhat inflates the rebounding rating I gave him, though I tried to account for it a bit.
-Part of me feels that I'm underrating Erving's offense and or defense. I would appreciate another opinion on this matter.
-Kobe was particularly tough for me to evaluate. The trouble I've run into comes from the difficulty of assigning him a 7 year prime that encompasses both his defensive and offensive prime.
Re: Rank ISH's top 15 NBA Players of All-Time in offense, defense, and rebounding
Offense:
1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Larry Bird
8. LeBron James
9. Jerry West
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Tim Duncan
13. Julius Erving
14. Moses Malone
15. Bill Russell
Defense:
1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain/Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Hakeem Olajuwon/Wilt Chamberlain
4. Tim Duncan
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Michael Jordan
7. Jerry West
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. LeBron James
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Moses Malone
12. Larry Bird
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Julius Erving
15. Magic Johnson
Rebounding:
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Bill Russell
3. Moses Malone
4. Tim Duncan
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8. Larry Bird
9. Magic Johnson
10. LeBron James
11. Julius Erving
12. Michael Jordan
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Kobe Bryant
15. Jerry West
Re: Rank ISH's top 15 NBA Players of All-Time in offense, defense, and rebounding
There really needs to be an assist/playmaking category here, otherwise, you're severely handicapping all-around players like Magic, Bird, Oscar, and LeBron.
Re: Rank ISH's top 15 NBA Players of All-Time in offense, defense, and rebounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by Champ
There really needs to be an assist/playmaking category here, otherwise, you're severely handicapping all-around players like Magic, Bird, Oscar, and Lebron.
One of the categories is offense, not scoring. Playmaking and passing (and offensive rebounding) are all part of offense.
Re: Rank ISH's top 15 NBA Players of All-Time in offense, defense, and rebounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by Champ
There really needs to be an assist/playmaking category here, otherwise, you're severely handicapping all-around players like Magic, Bird, Oscar, and Lebron.
I'm fine with that (separating offense into scoring and playmaking), but we might also need to split up defense (into man D and help/anchoring, or perimeter/post, whichever you want) then.
EDIT: I tried to edit the title...will this show up?
Re: Rank ISH's top 15 NBA Players of All-Time in offense, defense, and rebounding
I really agree with Psileas with only a couple of changes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psileas
Offense:
1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Larry Bird
7. Oscar Rob
8. LeBron James
9. Jerry West
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Tim Duncan
13. Julius Erving
14. Moses Malone
15. Bill Russell
My list changes a bit at four.
Offense:
1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Larry Bird
7. Oscar Rob
8. LeBron James
9. Jerry West
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Tim Duncan
13. Julius Erving
14. Moses Malone
15. Bill Russell
Quote:
Defense:
1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Tim Duncan
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Michael Jordan
7. Jerry West
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. LeBron James
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Moses Malone
12. Larry Bird
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Julius Erving
15. Magic Johnson
No changes but I can't really speak on West and Robertson on defense.
Quote:
Rebounding:
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Bill Russell
3. Moses Malone
4. Tim Duncan
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8. Larry Bird
9. Magic Johnson
10. LeBron James
11. Julius Erving
12. Michael Jordan
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Kobe Bryant
15. Jerry West
Re: Rank ISH's top 15 NBA Players of All-Time in offense, defense, and rebounding
Honestly I think bigs are overrated on D simply because they're big. It's harder to play defense on the perimeter than it is on the interior, more ground to cover, more picks to fight over, more speed to control, etc... Not saying the great bigmen aren't amazing defenders and don't anchor their team's defensive effort but... Jordan, GP, Kobe at his best, have had just as much of an impact in games defensively as any big. They stop the ball, they pressure ball handlers into bad decisions, force bad passes, create turnovers, steals, etc... and overall disrupt the entire flow of an opposition's offensive set. The bigs hold down the paint, guard the basket, and play centerfield while the guards do all dirty work for the majority of the shot clock.
3 blocks per game is no better than 3 steals per game. Bigs intimidate and alter shots, guards stop shots from ever going up. Dominant defensive players force their opposition out of their comfort zone and create turnovers. I think overall, impact wise, of those players, Jordan did as much for his team's defensive effort as Russell, Wilt or Duncan and as a guard I give him more credit, not less.
How many guys have ever really gone off on MJ in his prime?
Re: Rank ISH's top 15 NBA Players of All-Time in offense, defense, and rebounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
I don't even think he was a better all-around player than Jerry West. Not by the end at least. When both lost their athleticism, West was the more effective player.
That said, Robertson is unquestionably under-appreciated these days. Not underrated, I think he was formerly overrated, too often ahead of guys like Magic or Bird or Kareem or Russell. Still he was simply a sublime offensive player who not only could score at will, but understood how to get everyone else involved first and only score when it was needed or best for the team.
When they were both playing, people (i.e. journalists) certainly thought Oscar Robertson was the best all-around player in the League (not just of the time, but ever).
Oscar Robertson was a superior passer and rebounder than Jerry West. In the first half of his career, the Big O was a better scorer too and indeed a better shooter. West had the slight edge defensively, although Robertson is underrated in that department, in my opinion.
Re: Rank ISH's top 15 NBA Players of All-Time in offense, defense, and rebounding
Odinn, your rankings are the best yet. I agree with most of them, especially your defensive rankings (although Kareem is a bit high; Jordan was certainly a better defender). Meanwhile, I think you underrate Oscar Robertson:
- Oscar Robertson and Moses Malone have comparable total career points but Robertson had 5ppg more than Moses and also added 8apg extra. I can't see how Malone could be regarded as on a par with the Big O offensively. When you factor in Oscar Robertson's outstanding playmaking skills, you really ought to have him in the top 2 or 3.
- In fact, I can't think of a better offensive player than him; he could give you 30ppg or he could give you 10apg... often both. He's the only player who did that consistently throughout his career.
- Why is Jordan ranked higher than Oscar Robertson for rebounding?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odinn
Here is my lists with their ratings out of 10:
Offense;
1. Michael Jordan - 10
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 10
3. Shaquille O'Neal - 10
4. Larry Bird - 10
5. Magic Johnson - 9
6. Hakeem Olajuwon - 9
7. Kobe Bryant - 9
8. Wilt Chamberlain - 9
9. LeBron James - 9
10. Moses Malone - 8
11. Oscar Robertson - 8
12. Jerry West - 8
13. Tim Duncan - 7
14. Julius Erving - 7
15. Bill Russell - 6
Defense;
1. Bill Russell - 10
2. Wilt Chamberlain - 10
3. Hakeem Olajuwon - 10
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 9
5. Tim Duncan - 9
6. Michael Jordan - 8
7. Shaquille O'Neal - 8
8. LeBron James - 8
9. Jerry West - 8
10. Kobe Bryant - 7
11. Larry Bird - 7
12. Moses Malone - 6
13. Oscar Robertson - 6
14. Julius Erving - 6
15. Magic Johnson - 6
Rebounding;
1. Moses Malone - 10
2. Bill Russell - 10
3. Wilt Chamberlain - 10
4. Tim Duncan - 10
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 9
6. Shaquille O'Neal - 9
7. Hakeem Olajuwon - 9
8. Larry Bird - 8
9. LeBron James - 8
10. Julius Erving - 7
11. Magic Johnson - 7
12. Michael Jordan - 7
13. Oscar Robertson - 6
14. Kobe Bryant - 5
15. Jerry West - 4
Re: Rank ISH's top 15 NBA Players of All-Time in offense, defense, and rebounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
His TRB% and ORB% are generally higher. I'm guessing that's what most peoples reasoning for ranking Jordan over Robinson is.
Do you have the stats or a web link? I've been looking for those numbers. If that's the case, then Jordan deserves to be ranked above Oscar for rebounding.
Re: Rank ISH's top 15 NBA Players of All-Time in offense, defense, and rebounding
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillC
Do you have the stats or a web link? I've been looking for those numbers. If that's the case, then Jordan deserves to be ranked above Oscar for rebounding.
Jordan was quite a bit more consistent with his rebound rate, but I don't think it's at all as straightforward as it seems to write off Robinson as the inferior rebounder. We must keep in mind the differences in the era's in which these guys played - spacing, pace, minutes ect.
Re: Rank ISH's top 15 NBA Players of All-Time in offense, defense, and rebounding
