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Old 10-18-2012, 02:59 AM   #46
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

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Originally Posted by DatAsh
I think you're understating the gap between Kobe and Allen. Paralleling the comparison with that other thread, the difference between Kobe and Allen is greater than the difference between Jordan and Kobe, and I've seen quite a few people on this site state that as a sizable gap.
Ray is a better fit/2nd option for Shaq and the Lakers than Kobe was though. So even though Kobe was a top 5 player from 2001-2004, Ray was a top 10-15 player from 2001-2004, which isn't that big of a downgrade.

We still have to factor in how Ray is the better fit, has less of an ego, etc. It's not always about pure talent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackVVaves
I meant 03 Nets. But hey, let's avoid explaining where the great talent outside of Kobe and Shaq was displayed, and instead grasp onto a technicality.

Brilliant.
Cause that's better.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:02 AM   #47
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

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Originally Posted by chazzy
The Heat were better because of their better star talent, just like the Lakers were. The Bulls weren't nearly as balanced as the 00 Blazers though, who had a great defense to go along with their balanced offensive attack. You said the only team deeper than LA was the Kings so I was pointing out the other obvious team.

Haven't you heard? Fisher, Horry, Grant, Fox > Steve Smith, Rasheed Wallace, Bonzi Wells
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:03 AM   #48
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

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Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
Ray is a better fit/2nd option for Shaq and the Lakers than Kobe was though.
Based on what? His advantages are his superior off ball play and better spacing but he doesn't run an offense the way Kobe did and wasn't the lockdown defender he was either. Kobe's superior playmaking and ball handling were key for those teams, along with his superior shot creation down the stretch of close games. Not that prime Ray couldn't do those things, but his off ball play doesn't trump Kobe's advantages in those other areas.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:06 AM   #49
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

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Originally Posted by chazzy
Based on what? His advantages are his superior off ball play and better spacing but he doesn't run an offense the way Kobe did and wasn't the lockdown defender he was either. Kobe's superior playmaking and ball handling were key for those teams, along with his superior shot creation down the stretch of close games.
Ray has ran an offense before by playing PG with the Sonics. Boston C's has mentioned this many times. He may not be as good as Kobe at it, but it's not like he is horrible at it.

Also, Ray would be able to conserve more energy to play defense by playing alongside Shaq. As many have said, Kobe's defensive prime was during Shaq's years and it was during Shaq's years because he was given more energy to play defense on that end. Ray aside from his Boston years has never had the luxury to conserve energy to play defense and many Kobe/Lakers fans complain that Ray in Boston turns into Bruce Bowen when he guards Kobe.

Too many factors to consider.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:10 AM   #50
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

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Either you're attempting to discredit the actual value of Shaq and Kobe to those Lakers teams, or you truly didn't watch the NBA very closely back then. Maybe you should take a look at the 2001 season where Kobe and Shaq had to score 30 a game each to keep the wins rolling throughout the season. Similiar in the 2002 season. How about 2003 when an out of shape and injured Shaq almost cost the Lakers their season? If not for Kobe dropping 40 a game for the month of February the Lakers literally miss the playoffs. Where was this great talent outside of Shaq and Kobe then?

Not sure what you're talking about. A washed up Richmond, Fisher, Grant, Fox, Lue, George, Horry...that's great talent? Only the Kings were deeper? How about the 01 Blazers? The 03 Nets? The 03 Spurs?

Great talent. Not sure if serious....

No response RG?
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:13 AM   #51
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

maybe one.. they would have lost to the Kings 2002 (?) and they might not have made it past portland... the lakers were unstoppable when they went 15-1..
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:24 AM   #52
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

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Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
Ray has ran an offense before by playing PG with the Sonics.
Ridnour? That's another thing.. I don't think Ray has had primary playmaking duties more than maybe once in his career.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:29 AM   #53
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

Considering how great those kings, Spurs and blazers teams were? None... Kobe's play making ability was huge in those western conference series.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:29 AM   #54
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

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Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
Ray is a better fit/2nd option for Shaq and the Lakers than Kobe was though. So even though Kobe was a top 5 player from 2001-2004, Ray was a top 10-15 player from 2001-2004, which isn't that big of a downgrade.

We still have to factor in how Ray is the better fit, has less of an ego, etc. It's not always about pure talent.

Kobe was much better defensively though, and that team relied alot on Kobe's ability to set-up the offense and make plays for his teammates. Allen is a better fit for Shaq, but I'd argue that Kobe was a better fit for that team.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:34 AM   #55
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

I dont think Ray would be able to take over 4th quarters like Kobe did, as Shaq is a liability from the free throw line. The Lakers couldnt run the offense through him like they would through the first three quarters because of that.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:56 AM   #56
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

They certainly don't win in 02. I don't think they win in 01 because they don't get past the Blazers...I don't think. In 01 Kobe was beasting throughout the playoffs and was arguably the team's best player prior to the Finals. But that team was also beastly in the playoffs so I don't know. If they win 1 then that says a hell of a lot about Ray Allen. Tho I think the one thing wit Ray is that maybe the Lakers don't trade Jones for Rice and that Jones helps out Ray on the playmaking end and plays infinitely better defense than Glen Rice...tho I never thought Eddie Jones was a 3 but whatever.



BTW, Allen was hurt in 03/04, if I remember correctly. So if we're say the Lakers wouldn't have broken up, let's also remember Allen was hurt.

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Old 10-18-2012, 04:34 AM   #57
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

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They certainly don't win in 02. I don't think they win in 01 because they don't get past the Blazers...I don't think. In 01 Kobe was beasting throughout the playoffs and was arguably the team's best player prior to the Finals. But that team was also beastly in the playoffs so I don't know. If they win 1 then that says a hell of a lot about Ray Allen.

They definitely win in 2000. They definitely don't win a championship in 2001. Kobe carried that team in the second and third round in a way Ray Allen has never exhibited his capable of doing, and certainly not in 2001. You see Ray Allen dropping 34 a game on nearly nearly 50% shooting against the Kings and Spurs?

Yea, okay.

And I doubt they win in 2002 either, Kings take that series. However, Lakers may win in 2004, if Malone doesn't get injured. Then again, Lakers may have also won if Malone doesn't get hurt. So not sure if feasible, but I think Ray's outside shooting could have been used to stretch that Detroit D. Still, with Ben Wallace able to defend Shaq 1 v 1, and the entire Pistons defense is to focus on stopping and disrupting Ray Allen like they did on Kobe, not sure how effective he would be.

Kobe from 2001-2004 had already displayed his incredible offensive prowess, his ability to completely take over a game, to dominate team's perimeter defense, to, again citing, average 40 points per game in a month, completely rescuing your team's chances of making the playoffs. Ray Allen never reached that level of dominance in his career, although he was very good and sometimes great. And, those Ray Allens were in 2005 and 2006, not in 2001, 2002.
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:39 AM   #58
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

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So even though Kobe was a top 5 player from 2001-2004, Ray was a top 10-15 player from 2001-2004, which isn't that big of a downgrade.

thats like saying going from lebron to carmelo anthony isnt that big of a downgrade in 2010
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:31 AM   #59
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

3 or 4
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:45 AM   #60
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

comparing kobe to allen is like comparing lebron to carmelo........

it cant be that big of a downgrade right?

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