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Old 10-18-2012, 12:29 PM   #76
kuniva_dAMiGhTy
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowe
The Lakers would've won 5 Championships. 5 straight between 2000-2004.

Ray was a far better fit for the triangle offense than Kobe, mainly because he lacked the creativity or the mindset Kobe has to break free of the offense and attempt to take over a game by himself.

He would've been nearly unstoppable in an offense that involves movement and being able to hit shots from different spots on the floor revolving around the post. With the most dominant inside post player like Shaq, he would have averaged nearly 25 PPG just on that alone. We are not talking about the Ray Allen that arrived in Boston with 12 NBA seasons of wear & tear on his legs + 3 years of college basketball. We are talking about the agile, athletic, & smooth scorer he was in his early-mid 20's. When his jumpshot wasn't falling when he was younger he started attacking the basket and drawing fouls, unlike what happens now due to his old legs. A younger Ray Allen actually could slide & rotate when he was 25 years old compared to him being a defensive liability at 35 years old in Boston.

This goof calls someone "retarded" and then posts this. Kobe is getting severely underrated here
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:38 PM   #77
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowe
The Lakers would've won 5 Championships. 5 straight between 2000-2004.

Ray was a far better fit for the triangle offense than Kobe, mainly because he lacked the creativity or the mindset Kobe has to break free of the offense and attempt to take over a game by himself.

He would've been nearly unstoppable in an offense that involves movement and being able to hit shots from different spots on the floor revolving around the post. With the most dominant inside post player like Shaq, he would have averaged nearly 25 PPG just on that alone. We are not talking about the Ray Allen that arrived in Boston with 12 NBA seasons of wear & tear on his legs + 3 years of college basketball. We are talking about the agile, athletic, & smooth scorer he was in his early-mid 20's. When his jumpshot wasn't falling when he was younger he started attacking the basket and drawing fouls, unlike what happens now due to his old legs. A younger Ray Allen actually could slide & rotate when he was 25 years old compared to him being a defensive liability at 35 years old in Boston.



This is not accurate. The part about Allen is, but you're ignoring the sizeable gap between Kobe and Ray. Ray is a hall-of-famer but Kobe is a top 10 player.


Ray is only a better fit if you have someone to run and initiate offense. You go thru Shaq for a bucket or to get a play, not to run offense or get carried. The only way that Ray would work is if the Lakers keep Jones instead of Rice (as Ray covers the shooting off-ball and spacing) and then both Jones and Ray cover the playmaking duties. And honestly, without a player as good as Kobe, I don't know what Shaq does. He's not a leader, never ever was. And he's never been one to truly take accountability.



They would have had 0 chance to beat the Kings in 02.
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:42 PM   #78
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

Hmmm

I see that Laker team w/ Shuttlesworth instead of Kobe winning in 2000, for sure.

Kobe got hurt and the Lakers still won. Shaq was just the most motivated he had ever been in his entire career that season. That's really why the Lakers won. And Ray Allen v.s. Reggie Miller for an entire series would've basically canceled each other out.

I don't see them winning in 2001 and 2002. Kobe just provided too much on both ends of the court, that I don't see Ray Allen being able to duplicate.
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:45 PM   #79
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

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Originally Posted by Money 23
I don't see them winning in 2001 and 2002. Kobe just provided too much on both ends of the court, that I don't see Ray Allen being able to duplicate.
Who would have beaten them in 2001? Spurs had nobody outside of Duncan and Derek Anderson was hurt.

Also, what about in 2003 and 2004? Those seasons need to be factored as well.
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:46 PM   #80
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

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Originally Posted by BlackVVaves
They definitely win in 2000. They definitely don't win a championship in 2001. Kobe carried that team in the second and third round in a way Ray Allen has never exhibited his capable of doing, and certainly not in 2001. You see Ray Allen dropping 34 a game on nearly nearly 50% shooting against the Kings and Spurs?

Yea, okay.

And I doubt they win in 2002 either, Kings take that series. However, Lakers may win in 2004, if Malone doesn't get injured. Then again, Lakers may have also won if Malone doesn't get hurt. So not sure if feasible, but I think Ray's outside shooting could have been used to stretch that Detroit D. Still, with Ben Wallace able to defend Shaq 1 v 1, and the entire Pistons defense is to focus on stopping and disrupting Ray Allen like they did on Kobe, not sure how effective he would be.

Kobe from 2001-2004 had already displayed his incredible offensive prowess, his ability to completely take over a game, to dominate team's perimeter defense, to, again citing, average 40 points per game in a month, completely rescuing your team's chances of making the playoffs. Ray Allen never reached that level of dominance in his career, although he was very good and sometimes great. And, those Ray Allens were in 2005 and 2006, not in 2001, 2002.


Well, I'm torn on both 00 and 01. I think they might have won 1 of those 2...but even if they did, I don't know which one.


If Ray is healthy in 04, then yea they likely win...Malone's impact becomes even greater, and Payton probably plays much better.


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3 or 4


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Old 10-18-2012, 02:50 PM   #81
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
This is not accurate. The part about Allen is, but you're ignoring the sizeable gap between Kobe and Ray. Ray is a hall-of-famer but Kobe is a top 10 player.


Ray is only a better fit if you have someone to run and initiate offense. You go thru Shaq for a bucket or to get a play, not to run offense or get carried. The only way that Ray would work is if the Lakers keep Jones instead of Rice (as Ray covers the shooting off-ball and spacing) and then both Jones and Ray cover the playmaking duties. And honestly, without a player as good as Kobe, I don't know what Shaq does. He's not a leader, never ever was. And he's never been one to truly take accountability.



They would have had 0 chance to beat the Kings in 02.
The last sentance (of bolded) is not untrue but how does how good Kobe is relate to Shaq's maturity? Is the implication that Kobe was a leader? That's clearly untrue. The rotation guys like Fox, Shaw, Harper and Horry were (plus other vets) were leaders. Kobe isolated himself from the team.

Roland Lazenby is sympathetic to Kobe but the guy he portrays in "The Show" is hardly a leader. Phil Jackson's characterisation of him in "The Last Season" suggests, if anything the antithesis of leadership.

If that isn't the implication what is the point?
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:52 PM   #82
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

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Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
Who would have beaten them in 2001? Spurs had nobody outside of Duncan and Derek Anderson was hurt.
It still required some unbelievable performances from Kobe in those playoffs to get past them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
Also, what about in 2003 and 2004? Those seasons need to be factored as well.
I forgot to factor these in ... but allow me to retort.

2003? Hell no. That roster surrounding Shaq / Kobe was the worst of the entire bunch. It was difficult enough with Just Shaq and Kobe. Allen is less a utility guy than Kobe Bryant is ... so I imagine they would have had an even more difficult of time.

2004? Hmmm, I actually see them winning. Well balanced roster. Shaq as the alpha ego, the rest falling into place not challenging his alpha creating problems. No rape accusations and distractions from Colorado.

Even with Karl Malone's injury, I think that team could beat those Pistons. Ray Allen moving w/o needing the ball, while Shaq operates (he played well when he got the ball that series, offensively) and looking for the kick out.

I think the Lakers could've won. 2003 - 2006 was Ray Allen's peak, too.

So the Lakers w/ Allen instead of Kobe win in 2000 and 2004 in my book.

Shaq w/ Ray Allen: 2 rings
Shaq w/ Kobe Bryant: 3 rings

Afterall much of that Laker dominance from 2000 - 2004 was predicated on Shaquille O'Neal.

Laker / Kobe fans don't get mad. It's no knock on Kobe. I don't see Ray Allen being able to lead the 2008 - 2010 Lakers to the Finals and being able to win back to back chips, either.
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:59 PM   #83
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
The last sentance (of bolded) is not untrue but how does how good Kobe is relate to Shaq's maturity? Is the implication that Kobe was a leader? That's clearly untrue. The rotation guys like Fox, Shaw, Harper and Horry were (plus other vets) were leaders. Kobe isolated himself from the team.

Roland Lazenby is sympathetic to Kobe but the guy he portrays in "The Show" is hardly a leader. Phil Jackson's characterisation of him in "The Last Season" suggests, if anything the antithesis of leadership.

If that isn't the implication what is the point?



The difference is that there was a 2headed alpha. Kobe was annoying, to be honest. Shaq is whinier than anyone who's ever lived. But the two of them together were too much, and it allowed the other guys to serve as leaders and for all to fall under Jackson, with ease.
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:59 PM   #84
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

Not as many. Ray was great but Kobe was at his best defensive/athletic point with variable scoring skills. The defensive distraction that was Shaq would allow Kobe to create better scoring opportunities than Ray.

Sure Ray will knockdown a ridiculous amount of open corner threes but Kobe's perimeter defense would be missed. Not saying Kobe is a lockdown guy or ever was, but he could cover a guy better than Ray.

Sometimes games can become such a mess that offensive sets are disrupted and you need a guy who can create points and that guy in this instance would be Kobe.

Of course this is a biased opinion because Kobe is my all time favorite player but my opinions are still valid points I think.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:10 PM   #85
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

One for sure in 2001.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:22 PM   #86
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

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Originally Posted by ScalabrineStan
Assume its a direct swap, how many do u think they win?

The same amount that they would win if you swapped Duncan for Shaq
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:23 PM   #87
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

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Originally Posted by INDI
The same amount that they would win if you swapped Duncan for Shaq
Duncan / Kobe wins more than Shaq / Allen, IMO.

No ego, chemistry, alpha problems ... and the defense is even better.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:33 PM   #88
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScalabrineStan
Assume its a direct swap, how many do u think they win?

People forget that shaq has played with amazing guard talent his entire career. Penny was better than Allen at his prime and that didn't get it done,he's also played with Nash, Lebron, and ray Allen. The lone ring he got in 06 with wade was cool but it was also one of the weakest finals since I began watching basketball in the 90's. not taking anything from them because they did get it done but no one considered them to be a dynasty or anything.


Shaq has consistently had solid role players around him his entire career so the biggest difference in my eyes is Kobe. Take him away and I'm sure shaq still gets a ring but I'm also positive of the flip side that if you put another good big next to Kobe and he would still have had 2-4 rings in that time period
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:46 PM   #89
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

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Originally Posted by Money 23
Duncan / Kobe wins more than Shaq / Allen, IMO.

No ego, chemistry, alpha problems ... and the defense is even better.
True
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:52 PM   #90
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Default Re: How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

Ray a facilitator?
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