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Old 10-22-2012, 07:46 PM   #61
Scoooter
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Default Re: Martin Sheen, Woody Harrelson To Star In 9/11 'Truther' Film 'September Morn'

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Originally Posted by Norcaliblunt
Question for conspiracy skeptics. Why does it seem that you are not concerned with the gross amount of incompetence by our intelligence community, it would have taken for foreign terrorist's to pull this sort of event off? You rather argue with "nut jobs" instead of hold the incompetent individuals who are supposed to protect us accountable. It is proven fact that they anticipated and drilled the whole event for 10 years, with numerous security apparatuses in place, yet they still failed, and not one person lost there job over it. We still rely on these same people for intelligence and homeland security even though they biffed this, and the war in Iraq. Why are you not writing your congressmen and women demanding these criminally negligent military intelligence officials be removed and prosecuted? After all it is your theory and what you believe happened.
There is actually a cogent point buried in here about some of the dramatic shifts happen in the American intelligence community. The NSA was created in the wake of World War II, primarily as a means to protect America from Pearl Harbor-type sneak attacks. And you could make the argument that they've consistently failed in that task, though their funding has gone through the roof since 9/11. And a chief component of what they're up to now is a multi-billion dollar server farm in Utah being used to store and compile the electronic communications of American citizens, ostensibly to be fed into future pattern recognition programs in the hopes of data mining the precursors of terrorist attacks.

Interesting at least, terrifying at worst.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:54 PM   #62
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Default Re: Martin Sheen, Woody Harrelson To Star In 9/11 'Truther' Film 'September Morn'

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Originally Posted by Riddler
I don't think -p.tiddy- wants to acknowledge the existence of propaganda in our country.

Propaganda, if you think about it, is a conspiracy... therefore it cannot exist.


Riddler, how do you still have the energy to argue with a lot of these guys? It's useless. I gave up a long time ago.

David Ray Griffin describes people as "free thinkers" and "paradigmatic thinkers". You'll never break thru to the "paradigmatic" thinkers. Too much influence by the paradigms presented to them. Why waste your energy.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:13 PM   #63
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Default Re: Martin Sheen, Woody Harrelson To Star In 9/11 'Truther' Film 'September Morn'

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Originally Posted by bagelred
Riddler, how do you still have the energy to argue with a lot of these guys? It's useless. I gave up a long time ago.

David Ray Griffin describes people as "free thinkers" and "paradigmatic thinkers". You'll never break thru to the "paradigmatic" thinkers. Too much influence by the paradigms presented to them. Why waste your energy.
Is conspiracy not also a certain "paradigm"? You've proclaimed yourself some sort of intellectual authority and drawn a line in the sand, ostensibly to set into relief your "freedom of thought" with the oblivious trappings of "the sheeple".

At the end of the day, the more compelling - and less circumstantial - evidence has debunked a lot of the more testable claims of the "truther" movement. The straight story has mostly one version of events, while the conspiracy camp has fractured along different lines - everything from controlled demolition to independent CIA "false flag" - all the while being unable to demonstrate a plausible motive for the government doing this. What was the endgame? Two disastrous wars while the country teeters on the verge of economic collapse?

What was the point?
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:15 PM   #64
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Default Re: Martin Sheen, Woody Harrelson To Star In 9/11 'Truther' Film 'September Morn'

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Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
well I don't know who made that pic (not our gov. right? they are too clever for that of course) but I am sure they didn't intend for that to be viewed as an accurate illustration with perfectly round doors and 10 floors that hollow out the mountain perfectly lol...

they assume you have common sense and understand it is just a grafic representation....



actual tora bora caves found look like that ^^^


Sooo they just basically lied about the actual caves and basically used it to scare the population.. Where's the hydroelectric power systems, where's the ventilation, where's the highly sophisticated computers, the showers, the heat sensing technology? great

The cave you posted is some Medieval dungeon shit. Do you still think a man can be able to carry out some highly sophisticated shit in there?
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:16 PM   #65
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Default Re: Martin Sheen, Woody Harrelson To Star In 9/11 'Truther' Film 'September Morn'

What do you mean by "highly sophisticated"? Hijacking a plane isn't exactly the same as building an ICBM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:25 PM   #66
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Default Re: Martin Sheen, Woody Harrelson To Star In 9/11 'Truther' Film 'September Morn'

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Originally Posted by Scoooter
What do you mean by "highly sophisticated"? Hijacking a plane isn't exactly the same as building an ICBM.

Go hijack a plane and report your results to us ASAP.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:27 PM   #67
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Default Re: Martin Sheen, Woody Harrelson To Star In 9/11 'Truther' Film 'September Morn'

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Originally Posted by knickballer

Sooo they just basically lied about the actual caves and basically used it to scare the population.. Where's the hydroelectric power systems, where's the ventilation, where's the highly sophisticated computers, the showers, the heat sensing technology? great

The cave you posted is some Medieval dungeon shit. Do you still think a man can be able to carry out some highly sophisticated shit in there?
obviously it is ventilated...they are breathing in there aren't they?

that other pic had no mention of "sophisticated computers" either...lol

you took the visual of that graphic too literal...just read the text which is fine, and ignore the James Bond villain like drawing...common sense
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:28 PM   #68
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Default Re: Martin Sheen, Woody Harrelson To Star In 9/11 'Truther' Film 'September Morn'

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Originally Posted by knickballer
Go hijack a plane and report your results to us ASAP.
Already done. Piece of cake.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:34 PM   #69
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Default Re: Martin Sheen, Woody Harrelson To Star In 9/11 'Truther' Film 'September Morn'

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
obviously it is ventilated...they are breathing in there aren't they?

that other pic had no mention of "sophisticated computers" either...lol

you took the visual of that graphic too literal...just read the text which is fine, and ignore the James Bond villain like drawing...common sense

There's a big difference between the cave that was represented to the American people and the actual cave. They showed the other pic to hype of the threat of terrorism and what not and if they showed the pic you posted I don't think Americans would be shitting their pants.

That cave you posted is probably some CIA built cave back in the 70's.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:02 PM   #70
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Default Re: Martin Sheen, Woody Harrelson To Star In 9/11 'Truther' Film 'September Morn'

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Originally Posted by bagelred
You need to examine how much we spend on the military. It's astronomical. We could chop the military budget in half and it would still be more than adequate to "protect" ourselves.......from some phantom enemy that doesn't even exist.

Re-read what I said. His reasons for cutting the military are to put it bluntly laughable. There are a number of other reasons that the military can be cut, restructured and streamlined. 1 there is a lot of waste, so much so that it is a running joke within the branches 2 there are billions invested yearly in technologies that will never get off the ground floor for various reasons. Those need to be looked at and many dropped to save money. That's just two of them. The notion funding should be cut based on a few misses is stupid and illogical. You don't run the military like a business.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:11 PM   #71
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Default Re: Martin Sheen, Woody Harrelson To Star In 9/11 'Truther' Film 'September Morn'

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Originally Posted by Scoooter

At the end of the day, the more compelling - and less circumstantial - evidence has debunked a lot of the more testable claims of the "truther" movement. :

Not even remotely true. Just because you say something as if its fact, doesn't make it so. NOTHING has been debunked at all. Zero.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:25 PM   #72
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Default Re: Martin Sheen, Woody Harrelson To Star In 9/11 'Truther' Film 'September Morn'

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Originally Posted by Riddler
So I'm assuming you've heard of Able Danger?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Danger







Now... my question is this:

Why the f*ck did these government lawyers prevent the DIA and SOCOM from sharing this information with the FBI?

I think I know why...

you can't pull off 9/11 if your patsies are detained...




If you don't believe in any MIHOP theories (made it happen on purpose)

do your homework on ABLE DANGER and tell me it's impossible that
any LIHOP theories are possible (let it happen on purpose).



and that's my question for you IcanzIIravor... What do you think about the possibility that our government let 9/11 happen on purpose?

I am aware of Able Danger. I don't see how you can take a leap from what happened to confirm to you that the US government was in on a conspiracy to bring down the towers and attack itself at its very heart, the Pentagon. Since you brought up wiki I'll go through it.

Attorney Mark Zaid, representing Lt. Colonel Anthony Shaffer and the other four Able Danger employees at the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing in September 2005, pointed out to the Committee that his clients had been forbidden by the Pentagon to testify to the Committee. He also discussed the Defense Intelligence Agency's decision to suspend Lt. Colonel Shaffer's security clearance shortly after it became known that he had provided information to the 9/11 Commission on Able Danger. "Based on years of experience I can say categorically that the basis for the revocation was questionable at best."

He was forbidden to testify, which I think he should have been allowed to do after getting with his superiors and briefing them on what he wanted to say. I'm not surprised he had his clearance temporarily suspended when he testified anyway. I'd have had a lot worse done to me if I had gone against my superiors while at the NSA, let alone what the Air Force would have done to me. I'm sure he had the same clearance I had: TS/SCI.

This theory was heavily investigated and researched by Republican Representative Curt Weldon, vice chairman of the House Armed Services and House Homeland Security committees. However, Defense Intelligence Agency leadership had already ordered the hurried destruction of mined data, source databases, charts & resultant documents on entirely spurious legal grounds. DIA also prevented key personnel from testifying to both the Senate Judiciary & Senate Intelligence Committees, though after numerous denials did admit the program's existence.

The destruction of mined data, source databases, charts and other documents was certainly troubling, but I still don't see how you then take the leap to active government conspiracy and the government was behind 9/11. Seems more to point to a cover up after the fact as 2 and 2 added up. In other words people covering their asses because they didn't take the threat more serious than the other thousands of threats they assessed on a daily, monthly, yearly basis.

Mr. Speaker, I rise because information has come to my attention over the past several months that is very disturbing. I have learned that, in fact, one of our Federal agencies had, in fact, identified the major New York cell of Mohamed Atta prior to 9/11; and I have learned, Mr. Speaker, that in September 2000, that Federal agency actually was prepared to bring the FBI in and prepared to work with the FBI to take down the cell that Mohamed Atta was involved in in New York City, along with two of the other terrorists. I have also learned, Mr. Speaker, that when that recommendation was discussed within that Federal agency, the lawyers in the administration at that time said, you cannot pursue contact with the FBI against that cell. Mohamed Atta is in the U.S. on a green card, and we are fearful of the fallout from the Waco incident. So we did not allow that Federal agency to proceed

This would seem to poke holes in your massive conspiracy theory and point to an issue of the Admnistration being pc more than in on a conspiracy to blow up buildings on US soil to kick start the war on terror. Goes back to another reason to destroy data and cya as within the data, if pieced together was probably information that should have warranted them pushing harder for the FBI's inclusion.

On August 12, 2005, Hamilton and former 9/11 Commission chairman Thomas Kean issued a statement in response to media inquiries about the Commission's investigation of the Able Danger program.[20] It stated the Commission had been aware of the Able Danger program, and requested and obtained information about it from the Department of Defense, but none of the information provided had indicated the program had identified Atta or other 9/11 hijackers. They further stated that a claim about Atta having been identified prior to the attacks had been made to the 9/11 Commission on July 12, 2004 (just days before the Commission's report was released), by a United States Navy officer employed at DOD, but that

The interviewee had no documentary evidence and said he had only seen the document briefly some years earlier. He could not describe what information had led to this supposed Atta identification. Nor could the interviewee recall, when questioned, any details about how he thought a link to Atta could have been made by this DOD program in 2000 or any time before 9/11. The Department of Defense documents had mentioned nothing about Atta, nor had anyone come forward between September 2001 and July 2004 with any similar information. Weighing this with the information about Atta's actual activities, the negligible information available about Atta to other U.S. government agencies and the German government before 9/11, and the interviewer's assessment of the interviewee's knowledge and credibility, the Commission staff concluded that the officer's account was not sufficiently reliable to warrant revision of the report or further investigation.[20]


Shaffer's lawyer, Mark Zaid, has revealed that Shaffer had been placed on paid administrative leave for what he called "petty and frivolous" reasons and had his security clearance suspended in March 2004, following a dispute over travel mileage expenses and personal use of a work cell phone.[30] These allegations are claimed to have been pursued in bad faith & breach of process, in relation for Shaffer talking to the 9/11 Commission. Army investigations subsequently found these to be ill-grounded, and cleared his promotion.

If he was really suspended for these reasons then I agree that was a bit petty of them. Should have suspended him based on violating direct others unless he went under whistle blower protection.

Shaffer has also told the story of Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) opposition to Able Danger, prior to 9/11, based on the view Able Danger was encroaching on CIA turf. According to Shaffer, the CIA representative said, "I clearly understand. We're going after the leadership. You guys are going after the body. But, it doesn't matter. The bottom line is, CIA will never give you the best information from "Alex Base" or anywhere else. CIA will never provide that to you because if you were successful in your effort to target Al Qaeda, you will steal our thunder. Therefore, we will not support this."

This points back to the clash between the competing agencies in their quest for relevancy, dollars and ego.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:54 PM   #73
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Default Re: Martin Sheen, Woody Harrelson To Star In 9/11 'Truther' Film 'September Morn'

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Originally Posted by bagelred
Not even remotely true. Just because you say something as if its fact, doesn't make it so. NOTHING has been debunked at all. Zero.

Nothing has been proven by these conspiracy theorists. Except that the sales of tinfoil hats are on an inexpicably steady rise.
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:09 PM   #74
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Default Re: Martin Sheen, Woody Harrelson To Star In 9/11 'Truther' Film 'September Morn'

Quote:
Originally Posted by bagelred
Not even remotely true. Just because you say something as if its fact, doesn't make it so. NOTHING has been debunked at all. Zero.
i think we might find ourselves arguing over the definition of debunked - and to what extent an idea can be discredited before it's considered "debunked". For instance, I've never seen any compelling evidence that any of buildings in NY were brought down via controlled demolition. So I would consider that idea lacking, without having actually examined the structural components of the buildings in the moments before they collapsed.
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