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Old 10-24-2012, 10:35 AM   #16
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Default Re: Is The George Bush administration to blame for today's economic woes???

He is to be blamed for the deb and the needless wars but not so sure about the economy. Bush inherited office right after the dotcom bubble burst for one. People want to pin this recession (or whatever you want to call it) on him but i dont think thats fair. What did you want him to do? Forsee the housing bubbles and enact laws? This is more of market issue and if we let the market fix itself we would be better off. Now banks have gotten too big to fail and they know uncle sam will bail them out again.
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Old 10-24-2012, 11:50 AM   #17
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Default Re: Is The George Bush administration to blame for today's economic woes???

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Originally Posted by ALBballer
He is to be blamed for the deb and the needless wars but not so sure about the economy. Bush inherited office right after the dotcom bubble burst for one. People want to pin this recession (or whatever you want to call it) on him but i dont think thats fair. What did you want him to do? Forsee the housing bubbles and enact laws? This is more of market issue and if we let the market fix itself we would be better off. Now banks have gotten too big to fail and they know uncle sam will bail them out again.


Good point about the dotcom bust that was not Bush's fault.
That was a result of growth of the internet and too many people wanting to invest. I live in Silicon Valley (North of it) and if you just had an idea with for a business and placed .com behind it you could get a million dollar investor like that.

Any how about the housing markets etc. That happen during his tenure as president and he really didn't do much to stop it. And Bush's spending did not help as well.

And when I say do we blame Bush or Clinton etc. I am really talking about their whole administrations.
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:27 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is The George Bush administration to blame for today's economic woes???

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Originally Posted by crisoner
Good point about the dotcom bust that was not Bush's fault.
That was a result of growth of the internet and too many people wanting to invest. I live in Silicon Valley (North of it) and if you just had an idea with for a business and placed .com behind it you could get a million dollar investor like that.

Any how about the housing markets etc. That happen during his tenure as president and he really didn't do much to stop it. And Bush's spending did not help as well.

And when I say do we blame Bush or Clinton etc. I am really talking about their whole administrations.

But what should Bush have done? Enact laws to make it stricter to purchase a home? This would have been popular choice and killed the "American Dream." As far as i kmoe there were certain programs designed to help lower income families purchase a home they couldnt afford. Imo the governments job shouldnt be how to tell banks how to lend their money or tell credit agencies how to evaluate investments. These should be left to the industry.

The government should have stepped back and let the industry regulate itself add fix their issues. When the government gets involved it creates more inneficiencies. Just look at the cost of tuition and how it has skyrocketed thanks to government backed loans.
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:49 PM   #19
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Default Re: Is The George Bush administration to blame for today's economic woes???

The Housing Bubble popped and revealed a second bubble, the Credit Bubble which also popped. The Credit Bubble had been building since the 1980's.

For the economic crisis, read All the Devils are Here which takes a long view of the financial crisis and assigns blame to many, many people. Greenspan is a big one. Clinton's Treasury secretary Bob Rubin is another.

Bush's policies were very bad and greatly expanded our national debt. All the debt piled up under Obama is pretty much directly due to A. his choice to continue the Bush Policies and B. the Financial crisis. The debt piled up under Bush was pretty much a choice we made. Paul Krugman was known as a centrist neoliberal politically until he started writing that Bush's economic policies were a pack of lies and the mainstream press didn't care, then he became known as a raving leftist. We essentially chose to go into deficit with two taxes cuts tilted heavily towards the rich and then chose to keep the costs of the wars off budget in supplementary spending bills. So Bush put us in a bad situation for when something like the financial crisis hit.

As for why the situation is still only creeping upwards 4 years after Wall Street blew up, this is not an ordinary recession. Recessions that follow a "systemic financial crisis" take a long time to recover from. We haven't had a systemic financial crisis in this country since 1929. Two economists just studied "systemic financial crises" around the world and they say:
Quote:
The slow U.S. economic recovery is characteristic of recessions caused by financial crises, according to Harvard University economists Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff, who disputed analyses by advisers to Mitt Romney who say the recent American experience is different.
“The aftermath of the most recent U.S. financial crisis has been quite typical of systemic financial crises around the globe in the postwar era,” Reinhart and Rogoff wrote in a Bloomberg View column. “If one really wants to focus just on U.S. systemic financial crises, then the recent recovery looks positively brisk.”

One of these economists was an advisor to John McCain, so this is not an attempt to excuse Obama. In fact, their research was done in 2008.
Quote:
Indeed, in our initial published study on this topic, in 2008, we showed that systemic financial crises across advanced economies had far more serious economic consequences than borderline ones. Our paper, written nine months before the collapse of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. in September 2008, showed that by 2007, the U.S. already displayed many of the crucial recurring precursors of a systemic financial crisis: a real estate bubble, high levels of debt, chronically large current-account deficits and signs of slowing economic activity.
Today, there can be little doubt that the U.S. has experienced a systemic crisis -- in fact, its first since the Great Depression. Before that, notable systemic post-Civil War financial crises occurred in 1873, 1893 and 1907.
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Old 10-24-2012, 01:14 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is The George Bush administration to blame for today's economic woes???

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALBballer
But what should Bush have done? Enact laws to make it stricter to purchase a home? This would have been popular choice and killed the "American Dream." As far as i kmoe there were certain programs designed to help lower income families purchase a home they couldnt afford. Imo the governments job shouldnt be how to tell banks how to lend their money or tell credit agencies how to evaluate investments. These should be left to the industry.

The government should have stepped back and let the industry regulate itself add fix their issues. When the government gets involved it creates more inneficiencies. Just look at the cost of tuition and how it has skyrocketed thanks to government backed loans.

You have this wrong. The programs you were talking about applied to traditional brick and mortar banks. They basically said if you are going to have a bank branch in a community and take deposits (and get Federal Insurance on those deposits, you also had to lend in that community.) These programs were in reaction to what was known as "redlinning" which was a decade old and very widespread practice where banks didn't lend in certain neighborhoods (or lend to blacks moving into a white neighborhood). It's a practice that help create ghettos. Those types of banks were not subprime lenders.

The subprime loan industry was overwhelming NOT banks that raised money from deposits. They were places like "Countrywide or Ameriquest" that raised money from Wall Street and were just mortgage originators. (We used have one on the East Coast called "The Money Store.) These were not banks. When Banks got into this game, they created separate subprime companies that were not deposit banks. These subsidiaries were called Wells Fargo Financial, Chase Home Finance, CitiFinancial to distinguish them from the parent company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALBballer
The government should have stepped back and let the industry regulate itself add fix their issues.

This shows you really don't know what happened during the financial crisis. The lack of industry self-regulation was evident at all phases of the chain. The entire subprime lending industry was known for predatory lending and fraud. Then when these mortgages got bundled together and sold by Wall Street, there was massive and systemic failure of companies to manage risk, the whole industry and the ratings agencies mis-priced Credit Default Obligations and Credit Default Swaps to tune of hundreds of billions of dollars of mis-pricing. This what caused Alan Greenspan to conclude that his idea that financial markets could regulate themselves was "a flaw." The government didn't cause Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, AIG, and all the others to fail. They all happily did it to themselves by not estimated the risk correctly. They were making tons of money on the upside and then lost it all and more on the downside. Also they loved to create CDOs and CDSs because derivatives were unregulated. This is what caused the financial panic of 2008 to be so deep. Since these were unregulated deals, there wasn't an open market, so nobody really knew what they were worth and nobody knew how much bad mortgages another company owned, so everyone stopped trading to each other because that other guy could be another Lehman Brothers. The evidence of the financial crisis is that financial industry self-regulation was a massive, massive failure and posed a systemic risk to the entire economy.
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Old 10-24-2012, 02:09 PM   #21
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Default Re: Is The George Bush administration to blame for today's economic woes???

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Originally Posted by Kobe 4 The Win
[b]

It's unpopular to say it but war is actually good for the economy. It would take too long to explain why but you can research it if you are interested. Also, being in Iraq had nothing to do with the fact that it took us a long time to find Bin Laden. That's an intelligence issue not a boots on the ground issue.

i doubt that very much. that money is coming from our government, coming from tax payers, being added to our debt, and a massive amount of resources are being wasted for troops occupying and rebuilding overseas each and every day. nevermind the cost of fuel, bombs, etc. thats wasted. Republicans used to say this during the earlier part of the wars citing WW2 i think, but its just not true. i'm sure whatever reasoning they used is very convoluted, but its ridiculous to even believe that without even having to see any evidence. i can't even remember what the figures were per day of what the wars were costing us but no way it helps our economy when we're spending so much unless they're factoring out the debt.

i also find it hard to believe Bush or Republicans in general aren't more to blame for the scandals considering their whole agenda has always been big business deregulation, and they were pushing it hard just before the Enron scandal. Democrats are big business regulations, and they've still been trying to make big companies accountable to this day, and the Republicans are still vetoing their legislation to do that to this day.
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Old 10-24-2012, 02:47 PM   #22
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Default Re: Is The George Bush administration to blame for today's economic woes???

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinNYC
This shows you really don't know what happened during the financial crisis. The lack of industry self-regulation was evident at all phases of the chain. The entire subprime lending industry was known for predatory lending and fraud. Then when these mortgages got bundled together and sold by Wall Street, there was massive and systemic failure of companies to manage risk, the whole industry and the ratings agencies mis-priced Credit Default Obligations and Credit Default Swaps to tune of hundreds of billions of dollars of mis-pricing. This what caused Alan Greenspan to conclude that his idea that financial markets could regulate themselves was "a flaw." The government didn't cause Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, AIG, and all the others to fail. They all happily did it to themselves by not estimated the risk correctly. They were making tons of money on the upside and then lost it all and more on the downside. Also they loved to create CDOs and CDSs because derivatives were unregulated. This is what caused the financial panic of 2008 to be so deep. Since these were unregulated deals, there wasn't an open market, so nobody really knew what they were worth and nobody knew how much bad mortgages another company owned, so everyone stopped trading to each other because that other guy could be another Lehman Brothers. The evidence of the financial crisis is that financial industry self-regulation was a massive, massive failure and posed a systemic risk to the entire economy.

This is very well explained.


And also this is a vital bit of information:

Quote:
The subprime loan industry was overwhelming NOT banks that raised money from deposits. They were places like "Countrywide or Ameriquest" that raised money from Wall Street and were just mortgage originators. (We used have one on the East Coast called "The Money Store.) These were not banks. When Banks got into this game, they created separate subprime companies that were not deposit banks. These subsidiaries were called Wells Fargo Financial, Chase Home Finance, CitiFinancial to distinguish them from the parent company.

It's quite shocking to see how many opinionated people don't understand the very core mechanics of the 08 mortgage crisis.
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:09 PM   #23
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Default Re: Is The George Bush administration to blame for today's economic woes???

Calling the mortgage crisis a result of the free market is a joke. You can't say the systemic source of the crisis was deregulation and to ignore the tax incentives for Fannie and Freddie to buy up a required percentage of subprime loans which is indirect government interference. Fannie and Freddie bought up 80% of all loans in 2008! This is artificial demand created through non direct consequences of government policy. Of course, they will act that way if the government gives incentives for it to act that way! The source of the economic crisis had so many inputs, to blame the free market is wrong and cherrypicking facts.

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Old 10-24-2012, 04:31 PM   #24
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Default Re: Is The George Bush administration to blame for today's economic woes???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe 4 The Win
It's unpopular to say it but war is actually good for the economy. It would take too long to explain why but you can research it if you are interested. Also, being in Iraq had nothing to do with the fact that it took us a long time to find Bin Laden. That's an intelligence issue not a boots on the ground issue.

Manufacturing war is good for the economy. It really snapped the Great Depression. Going to war is not good for the economy. And this has been true all throughout history.

These days though it saps money since we aren't manufacturing in the same manner/as much. There is no money coming back in from it.
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:38 PM   #25
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Default Re: Is The George Bush administration to blame for today's economic woes???

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Originally Posted by Timmy D for MVP
Manufacturing war is good for the economy. It really snapped the Great Depression. Going to war is not good for the economy. And this has been true all throughout history.

These days though it saps money since we aren't manufacturing in the same manner/as much. There is no money coming back in from it.
Would you say it's better than the investments in failed green companies that obama has done? Sure it looks good in speech, but these green companies have been a massive failure. More politically motivated, terrible financial decisions that pander to a certain crowd rather than investing in real R&D.
In fact, a substantial fraction of the green stimulus money(79%) is going to foreign companies while defense manufacturing would be largely domestic.
http://www.statesman.com/business/se...ng-315293.html
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:47 PM   #26
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Default Re: Is The George Bush administration to blame for today's economic woes???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jello
Would you say it's better than the investments in failed green companies that obama has done? Sure it looks good in speech, but these green companies have been a massive failure. More politically motivated, terrible financial decisions that pander to a certain crowd rather than investing in real R&D.
In fact, a substantial fraction of the green stimulus money(79%) is going to foreign companies while defense manufacturing would be largely domestic.
http://www.statesman.com/business/se...ng-315293.html

Is going to war a better economic ideal than investing in companies? Is that the question you're asking me?

I think what you mean to ask is: Is investing in our defense capabilities a better option? And for that I say, idk. But I know that going to war doesn't grow economy.
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:55 PM   #27
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Default Re: Is The George Bush administration to blame for today's economic woes???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy D for MVP
Is going to war a better economic ideal than investing in companies? Is that the question you're asking me?

I think what you mean to ask is: Is investing in our defense capabilities a better option? And for that I say, idk. But I know that going to war doesn't grow economy.
Going to war requires preparation and upkeep. I think defense spending and going to war go hand in hand. If going to war results in manufacturing and investment in real R&D, it does create more high skilled labor and helps buoy our domestic manufacturing base.
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:03 PM   #28
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Default Re: Is The George Bush administration to blame for today's economic woes???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jello
Going to war requires preparation and upkeep. I think defense spending and going to war go hand in hand. If going to war results in manufacturing and investment in real R&D, it does create more high skilled labor and helps buoy our domestic manufacturing base.

I'm having a hard time understanding your position. War costs a ton of money, you bleed money if you participate in it except for the rarest of occasions.

Are you advocating war as a means to break economic downturns?
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:13 PM   #29
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Default Re: Is The George Bush administration to blame for today's economic woes???

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Originally Posted by Timmy D for MVP
I'm having a hard time understanding your position. War costs a ton of money, you bleed money if you participate in it except for the rarest of occasions.

Are you advocating war as a means to break economic downturns?
After reading my posts, I obviously misunderstood your first post. I was overzealous in defending my poorly articulated position. I agree with your first post.
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