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Old 11-07-2012, 05:14 PM   #16
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Default Re: Doc Rivers how was he so trash in Orlando and now great in Boston?

Doc is a good coach. All good coaches have a very good staff around them. Phil Jackson had plenty of good asst's, as did Riley, as did JVG same with Carlisle. These guys have to be smart enough to realize they don't know everything there is to know about bball, and have good people around them and most importantly, listen to them.

But I've always believed that while Doc is very good at in game play calling, that same play calling is what gets him in trouble. His desire to control the offensive game is pigeon-holding that offensive talent he's got. If they arent' running and gunning, their offense is stagnant.

Look at Miami, they were like that 2 years ago, stagnant in the half court. The team today offensively is like night and day. Their cutting is a beautiful thing to watch. Boston is iso heavy and play call heavy. They got a legit pg, let him work the p&r and create more than he does now
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: Doc Rivers how was he so trash in Orlando and now great in Boston?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artillery
Popovich was 17-47 the year before Duncan joined the Spurs

Yes, Popovich tanked that season. Doc is tanking ?
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:15 PM   #18
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Default Re: Doc Rivers how was he so trash in Orlando and now great in Boston?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artillery
Popovich was 17-47 the year before Duncan joined the Spurs
With Robinson out the whole season. But I see your point that you still need talent to win, and I agree with that. Doc had zero talent in Orlando outside Mac
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:27 PM   #19
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Default Re: Doc Rivers how was he so trash in Orlando and now great in Boston?

Doc Rivers is a great personnel coach. great leader and manager of men. by everyones logic you must be a guru to be a great coach.

mike brown is a terrific defense organizer. if he focused on just that you would have one of the best defensive coaches in the,game.

doc is not great with x and o but players greatly respect him and play hard for him
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: Doc Rivers how was he so trash in Orlando and now great in Boston?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PP34Deuce
Doc Rivers is a great personnel coach. great leader and manager of men. by everyones logic you must be a guru to be a great coach.

mike brown is a terrific defense organizer. if he focused on just that you would have one of the best defensive coaches in the,game.

doc is not great with x and o but players greatly respect him and play hard for him

So who is a better defensive coach potato head, doc, or thibs?
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:35 PM   #21
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Default Re: Doc Rivers how was he so trash in Orlando and now great in Boston?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
Thank you.



And I should add, I love Doc Rivers...and he did a fine job with Orlando. His team sucked. But he's overrated, at least since 2010. His offense is garbage. Look at how stacked his team is. I don't care if KG isn't the same KG. He's still an elite defensive player, a very good rebounder, and a good offensive player (would be nice if they ever utilized his passing). Paul Pierce and Rajon Rondo are elite and amongst the very best players in the entire league. Plus, they depth is crazy.



Their team was much better than Miami's two years ago...had it just come down to Wade and James being the two best players on the floor, that would be fine. But the team, as a whole, was disappointing. And that's on Doc Rivers.

The Doc rivers high pick and roll is one of the most predictable plays in basketball, watch over the last three years in big games, when the Celtics were absolutely rolling with their offensive and had one or two times they didn't score, and Doc goes to the high screen and roll with isolation plays, which either resulted in turnover and no score. The stats prove it, I am pretty sure they had a high turnover rate last year.

The Celtics need to rebuild, they don't have the offense to compete in this league for a title.

How can they beat the Heat?

There entire offensive relies on a non shooting point guard, good luck with that.

Ray Allen In the Miami offense is almost gone back to the Seattle and Milwaukee days, hes not just a shooter, he driving passing, and showing more diversity in his game.

Doc Pigeon hole players, and that just doesn't work.
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:36 PM   #22
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Default Re: Doc Rivers how was he so trash in Orlando and now great in Boston?

It seems so obvious, but the players are reasons number 1, 2 and 3 as to why a team is successful on any level. How great a coach is can be the difference between a good team just being good and a good team winning a championship but by and large, I do often believe a coach's effect on absolute success is overrated.

I think it's similar to the championship argument that always comes into play when discussing the top players in history. Is Michael Jordan an incredible player? Sure. Did he win a lot? Yep. But would he have experienced the same amount of success had his wingmen been Doug Smith and Mike Iuzzolino instead of Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen? Likely not. If Jordan played for teams like the '93 Mavs his whole life, he would have made them better than they'd be without him, but they're not winning rings. Jordan would have still been Jordan throughout the entire process though.

I think it's the same with coaching. Can a great coach take the stacked 1999 Lakers squad and instill the changes necessary to win a ring the following season? Yes. I think Phil Jackson made a difference in L.A., helping them take the next step that other coaches may have not been able to provide. On the flip side though, if Jackson were handed the reigns to that aforementioned '93 Mavs team, would he have been leading them to a ring, or even the playoffs? Not so much. Maybe he leads them to 15 or 20 wins instead of 11, but coaches aren't miracle workers (neither are single players). Teams have to be in tact in order to experience success.

With that in mind, I think Doc Rivers earned his Coach of the Year award in Orlando for being able to yield something relatively positive from a team that many others felt lacked talent, experience and ability. Many folks lauded Rivers' ability to take a team led by Darrell Armstrong and John Amaechi to the fringe of the playoffs. I don't think an absolute record decides whether a coach is trash or great, it's more a matter of whether they're able to maximize what they have on their plate, or at least what we perceive they have on their plate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artillery
Popovich was 17-47 the year before Duncan joined the Spurs
Ha yep, 20-62 overall. I found out a week before Christmas that year that my dad had bought me tickets to the Spurs-Pistons game in January. It was going to be my first (and only) opportunity to see my all-time favorite player (David Robinson) in person. Of course, what happened two days before Christmas? Robinson went down with a season ending injury. Then Charles Smith went down. And Sean Elliott. And even Dominique Wilkins.

Here's a look at who should have been starting in the Pistons-Spurs game versus who actually started:

Projected:

Avery Johnson
Vinny Del Negro
Sean Elliott
Charles Smith
David Robinson

Actual:

Avery Johnson
Vernon Maxwell
Monty Williams
Carl Herrera
Will Perdue

Worst NBA game I ever attended. The Spurs played 9 players. Their four man bench: Del Negro, Cadillac Anderson, Cory Alexander, and Jason Sasser. Yes.

Last edited by Rake2204 : 11-07-2012 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:39 PM   #23
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Default Re: Doc Rivers how was he so trash in Orlando and now great in Boston?

It's called self-deception bias. Taking credit for success, blaming external factors for failures.
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:47 PM   #24
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Default Re: Doc Rivers how was he so trash in Orlando and now great in Boston?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KB8tHeGrEaT
So who is a better defensive coach potato head, doc, or thibs?

thibs,is a guru. then mike brown. doc is decent at off and def but not great in either. hes the best coach at handling personalities and men.
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:52 PM   #25
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Default Re: Doc Rivers how was he so trash in Orlando and now great in Boston?

This topic is stupid. There's only been one Rivers' team that lost a playoff series it should have won (vs. the suspended Pacer team a few years ago). "Garbage" Rivers in Orlando won Coach of the Year. He had one superstar and everyone else was average or worse. Who was the second-best player during the Rivers/McGrady days, Drew Gooden? Mike Miller? And they weren't even on the team with him at the same time as they were dealt for one another. No one is going to win big with the teams he had in Orlando. Show one talented team he got to coach over there.
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:11 PM   #26
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Default Re: Doc Rivers how was he so trash in Orlando and now great in Boston?

Popovich was a rookie coach who had just lost one of the top 5 players in the league for the entire season. And he had no Tim Duncan. And he came on, 18 games into the season, replacing (I forget his name).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Crown&Coke
Doc is a good coach. All good coaches have a very good staff around them. Phil Jackson had plenty of good asst's, as did Riley, as did JVG same with Carlisle. These guys have to be smart enough to realize they don't know everything there is to know about bball, and have good people around them and most importantly, listen to them.

But I've always believed that while Doc is very good at in game play calling, that same play calling is what gets him in trouble. His desire to control the offensive game is pigeon-holding that offensive talent he's got. If they arent' running and gunning, their offense is stagnant.

Look at Miami, they were like that 2 years ago, stagnant in the half court. The team today offensively is like night and day. Their cutting is a beautiful thing to watch. Boston is iso heavy and play call heavy. They got a legit pg, let him work the p&r and create more than he does now



I agree.
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:14 PM   #27
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Default Re: Doc Rivers how was he so trash in Orlando and now great in Boston?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharmer
The Doc rivers high pick and roll is one of the most predictable plays in basketball, watch over the last three years in big games, when the Celtics were absolutely rolling with their offensive and had one or two times they didn't score, and Doc goes to the high screen and roll with isolation plays, which either resulted in turnover and no score. The stats prove it, I am pretty sure they had a high turnover rate last year.

The Celtics need to rebuild, they don't have the offense to compete in this league for a title.

How can they beat the Heat?

There entire offensive relies on a non shooting point guard, good luck with that.

Ray Allen In the Miami offense is almost gone back to the Seattle and Milwaukee days, hes not just a shooter, he driving passing, and showing more diversity in his game.

Doc Pigeon hole players, and that just doesn't work.




They definitely have the talent. But you are right, Rivers is pigeon-holing them.


Rondo is elite, so that's not a problem. The problem is this obsession with "He's our best player now, let's put the ball in his hands", as if everyone else should feel privileged to play with Rondo. Pierce is elite and KG has more to off on the offensive end than Doc demands. It's a waste.



Doc is a great motivator and guys love playing for him. But how much motivation do these guys need? They're great players, who have been together a while, and are veterans. KG is as good a leader as you'll ever see.
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:29 PM   #28
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Default Re: Doc Rivers how was he so trash in Orlando and now great in Boston?

top 5 coach in the NBA.
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:31 PM   #29
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Default Re: Doc Rivers how was he so trash in Orlando and now great in Boston?

Doc draws up some the best end of game plays I have ever seen, no lie.
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:42 PM   #30
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Default Re: Doc Rivers how was he so trash in Orlando and now great in Boston?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
Popovich was a rookie coach who had just lost one of the top 5 players in the league for the entire season. And he had no Tim Duncan. And he came on, 18 games into the season, replacing (I forget his name).

He replaced Bob Hill, and I'm still not sure why he was fired. I think Pop was the one that fired him.
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