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Old 11-14-2012, 03:33 PM   #31
Jailblazers7
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

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Originally Posted by Math2
It's different when raising revenue is taking from one group and giving to another.

That is essentially what Medicare and SS does. Take from young workers and give to old folks.

What people generally think of as welfare (aid to the poor/lazy or w/e you want to call it) is prob comparable in terms of spending to our national defense budget.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:39 PM   #32
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

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Originally Posted by Math2
Does that not discourage growth by punishing the successful?
Yep, you're right. If I get my taxes increased, and only take home $1,500,500 instead of $1,675,000 this year, I quit. I'm going to quit my job and go on Food Stamps. It's just so much easier to NOT be rich!
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:45 PM   #33
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

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Originally Posted by Droid101
Yep, you're right. If I get my taxes increased, and only take home $1,500,500 instead of $1,675,000 this year, I quit. I'm going to quit my job and go on Food Stamps. It's just so much easier to NOT be rich!

It doesn't matter how you put it, you're discouraging success just like you discourage work when you give to the poor. That $1675000 you mentioned becomes less and less as welfare costs rise and rise and rise. It's unsustainable without having the rich pay upwards of 90% by 2050.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:46 PM   #34
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

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Originally Posted by Jailblazers7
That is essentially what Medicare and SS does. Take from young workers and give to old folks.

What people generally think of as welfare (aid to the poor/lazy or w/e you want to call it) is prob comparable in terms of spending to our national defense budget.

And that's why Medicare and SS need to be abolished.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:50 PM   #35
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Math2
And that's why Medicare and SS need to be abolished.

Medicare and SS were created because there was a massive problem of poverty in older age groups in America. I think the current estimate is that SS keeps 35-40% of the 65+ year old American population out of poverty.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:51 PM   #36
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Math2
It doesn't matter how you put it, you're discouraging success just like you discourage work when you give to the poor. That $1675000 you mentioned becomes less and less as welfare costs rise and rise and rise. It's unsustainable without having the rich pay upwards of 90% by 2050.
It's not encouraging poverty or discouraging success.

Nobody on welfare wants to be on welfare.

Nobody making hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars wants to make less.

Guess what they both have in common? They'll both try to make more money.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:44 PM   #37
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

"Oh, if only the stupid masses would listen to our good ideas! We'd get this country back on track!"

"Okay, lay out these 'good ideas' for us."

"THE DUMBOCRAPS ARE DOING IT ALL WRONG!"

"Uh, that's not an 'idea' per se."

"Tax cuts! More and more tax cuts!"

"Yeah, we've tried that lots of times. Doesn't work."

"WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?"

"Okay, then. See you later."

"WHY ARE ALL OF THESE STUPID PEOPLE NOT LISTENING TO US ANYMORE?"
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:24 PM   #38
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

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Originally Posted by Droid101
"Oh, if only the stupid masses would listen to our good ideas! We'd get this country back on track!"

"Okay, lay out these 'good ideas' for us."

"THE DUMBOCRAPS ARE DOING IT ALL WRONG!"

"Uh, that's not an 'idea' per se."

"Tax cuts! More and more tax cuts!"

"Yeah, we've tried that lots of times. Doesn't work."

"WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?"

"Okay, then. See you later."

"WHY ARE ALL OF THESE STUPID PEOPLE NOT LISTENING TO US ANYMORE?"


And spending unsustainable amounts of money on welfare works....how?
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:39 PM   #39
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_...s_i n_history

Quote:
Employment has grown with higher top marginal tax rates.
Where is your god now, Norquist?
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:30 PM   #40
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

^Pssht, everyone knows facts have a liberal leaning. Disregard everything we've seen from a Bush tax cut era economy, everyone knows if you raise taxes on 2% of the country there will be job stagnation and the economy will be destroyed. Trickle down, people, trickle down.
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:46 PM   #41
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Math2
The "growth" we are seeing now would not exist if Republicans didn't own the House.


The Republicans in Congress shut down the American Jobs Act which according to several agencies would've created 2-2.6 million jobs and added 1.5% in growth to the GDP. So the Republicans 'owning' the house has slowed down the economy significantly. If it's up to them, we'll see another deep recession.
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:00 PM   #42
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDadda59
The Republicans in Congress shut down the American Jobs Act which according to several agencies would've created 2-2.6 million jobs and added 1.5% in growth to the GDP. So the Republicans 'owning' the house has slowed down the economy significantly. If it's up to them, we'll see another deep recession.


Bullshit. I'm sorry but that act was so full of pork I could hear the oinking from here. Thank God it didn't pass.
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:22 PM   #43
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by rufuspaul
Bullshit. I'm sorry but that act was so full of pork I could hear the oinking from here. Thank God it didn't pass.

Don't take my word for it.


Quote:
An Analysis of the Obama Jobs Plan

By Mark Zandi in West Chester
September 9, 2011
SHARETHIS

President Obama's jobs proposal would help stabilize confidence and keep the U.S. from sliding back into recession.

The plan would add 2 percentage points to GDP growth next year, add 1.9 million jobs, and cut the unemployment rate by a percentage point.

The plan would cost about $450 billion, about $250 billion in tax cuts and $200 billion in spending increases.

Many of the president's proposals are unlikely to pass Congress, but the most important have a chance of winning bipartisan support.

http://www.economy.com/dismal/articl...src=mark-zandi

Quote:
A quick look at the job impact of the president’s proposals
Posted September 8, 2011 at 9:45 pm by JOHN IRONS

Overall the package would increase employment by about 4.3 million jobs over the next couple of years. The new initiatives would boost employment by about 2.6 million jobs, while the continuation of the two temporary provisions (EUI and the payroll tax holiday) would prevent a backslide of over 1.6 million jobs.

http://www.epi.org/blog/quick-job-im...99s-proposals/

Quote:
American Jobs Act: A Significant Boost to GDP and Employment

We estimate that the American Jobs Act (AJA), if enacted, would give a significant boost to GDP and employment over the near-term.
The various tax cuts aimed at raising workers’ after-tax income and encouraging hiring and investing, combined with the spending increases aimed at maintaining state & local employment and funding infrastructure modernization, would:

Boost the level of GDP by 1.3% by the end of 2012, and by 0.2% by the end of 2013.

Raise nonfarm establishment employment by 1.3 million by the end of 2012 and 0.8 million by the end of 2013, relative to the baseline.

The program works directly to raise employment through tax incentives and support to state & local governments for increasing hiring; it works indirectly through the positive boost to aggregate demand (and hence hiring) stimulated by the direct spending and the increase in household income resulting from lower employee payroll taxes and increased employment.

http://macroadvisers.blogspot.com/20...-boost-to.html

Quote:
–Based on our preliminary estimates, using the various multipliers, the fiscal lift to 2012 growth might be around 1.8 percentage-points, all else equal, from the “Jobs Act”. All in all, this program could potentially offset the expiring provisions coupled with the fiscal drag from the debt ceiling deal of roughly 1.5 percentage-points in total in 2012. –Thomas Lam, OSK-DMG

–President Obama’s jobs plan, if implemented, would boost employment by around 4.3 million jobs (yes, 1.6 million of those jobs would come from continuing temporary policies that are already in place and supporting the economy today, but the new initiatives alone would generate 2.6 million jobs). –Heidi Shierholz, Economic Policy Institute

The only reason it didn't pass is the same reason we might be dragged into another recession.
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:31 PM   #44
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Math2
It doesn't matter how you put it, you're discouraging success just like you discourage work when you give to the poor. That $1675000 you mentioned becomes less and less as welfare costs rise and rise and rise. It's unsustainable without having the rich pay upwards of 90% by 2050.

not everything is about growth.

social welfare appeals to an intuitive sense of fairness. if we truly believe in equal opportunity then curtailing intergenerational wealth transfer is necessary to achieve that goal. we all can agree that some people are born into luckier situations then other. If life was somehow a complete market in which people can take out insurance to hedge against the possibility of being born into a shitty situation, then people would do that. Wealth redistribution is but an ex post expression of that insurance.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:46 AM   #45
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Droid101


This old canard? Taxes are lower for rich people than any time in our history. Give us one good reason why their rates can't go back to Clinton levels (the same time we had our last economic boon). Go on, one reason.

Taxes are lower for the rich than at any time in our history? Does that include the first 125 years, when we didn't have an income tax at all?
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