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Old 11-15-2012, 08:05 AM   #46
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Taxes are lower for the rich than at any time in our history? Does that include the first 125 years, when we didn't have an income tax at all?


Good point. The sad thing about vilifying the rich and essentially holding them responsible for the deficit is that it won't solve anything. Even if you took 100% of the income of all the millionaires and billionaires in this country (something all the Karl Marx clones on this board probably want) it wouldn't make a significant dent in the deficit.

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Old 11-15-2012, 11:25 AM   #47
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Taxes are lower for the rich than at any time in our history? Does that include the first 125 years, when we didn't have an income tax at all?
Yeah, because the 1800's are totally relevant and comparable to the past 112 years of existing in this country.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:27 AM   #48
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Taxes are lower for the rich than at any time in our history? Does that include the first 125 years, when we didn't have an income tax at all?


lol are you really going to talk about times when people were riding horses through towns, playign cowboys and indians, and our government or infrastructure was nowhere near what its at today? never mind how much more of a civilized society we are today thanks to government programs and law enforcement to create order from the chaos of earlier civilizations.

i swear you independents always hearken back to some unrealistic stuff to constantly use as examples for us to live by today
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:30 AM   #49
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Droid101
Yeah, because the 1800's are totally relevant and comparable to the past 112 years of existing in this country.


True. I don't think they had a shot clock back then.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:30 AM   #50
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by rufuspaul
Good point. The sad thing about vilifying the rich and essentially holding them responsible for the deficit is that it won't solve anything. Even if you took 100% of the income of all the millionaires and billionaires in this country (something all the Karl Marx clones on this board probably want) it wouldn't make a significant dent in the deficit.


how wouldn't it solve anything? the more money the government collects the more goes towards paying off our deficit....

one things for sure, they aren't going to pay the deficit off by not taxing anyone.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:33 AM   #51
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzuki
lol are you really going to talk about times when people were riding horses through towns, playign cowboys and indians, and our government or infrastructure was nowhere near what its at today? never mind how much more of a civilized society we are today thanks to government programs and law enforcement to create order from the chaos of earlier civilizations.

i swear you independents always hearken back to some unrealistic stuff to constantly use as examples for us to live by today


I think his point was a little tongue-in-cheek jab. Still the US was able to win wars and provide mail service, etc. without taxing what the citizens earned. Totally unsustainable in today's world but worth remembering, especially since "government" and "efficiency" are 2 words that don't go hand in hand nowadays.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:45 AM   #52
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzuki
how wouldn't it solve anything? the more money the government collects the more goes towards paying off our deficit....

one things for sure, they aren't going to pay the deficit off by not taxing anyone.


No. The way to raise revenue is to get people back to work. Specifically promote policies that are favorable to small business and encourage investment. You can raise taxes to a degree and certainly reform the idiotic code, but that alone won't really solve the problem.

Spending is another issue and sadly I don't think congress will ever get it right. There's such an entrenched habit of attaching pork projects to bills on both sides of the aisle that I don't see it ever getting any better. I hope I'm wrong.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:46 AM   #53
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by rufuspaul
I think his point was a little tongue-in-cheek jab. Still the US was able to win wars and provide mail service, etc. without taxing what the citizens earned. Totally unsustainable in today's world but worth remembering, especially since "government" and "efficiency" are 2 words that don't go hand in hand nowadays.


nah its consistent with a lot of stuff Joe says that aren't very applicable to the current reality, but its the same with some of the stuff Ron Paul says as well. i don't think its tongue n cheek more than what they believe.

there is a lot more infrastructure to upkeep now, a much larger population, way more civil/domestic issues where comparing old times to now isn't realistic. our government isn't efficient and bloated which i think both parties know, but its not like there aren't issues everywhere else as well, like the rich vs poor gap constantly widening.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:55 PM   #54
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzuki
lol are you really going to talk about times when people were riding horses through towns, playign cowboys and indians, and our government or infrastructure was nowhere near what its at today? never mind how much more of a civilized society we are today thanks to government programs and law enforcement to create order from the chaos of earlier civilizations.

i swear you independents always hearken back to some unrealistic stuff to constantly use as examples for us to live by today

Yeah it's the same faulty reasoning some use to justify our antiquated gun laws. 'I need these guns to fight against tyranny' like they're going to gather muskets to join a militia to fight against the King of England and it's the 18th century

Times change and society has to adapt accordingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rufuspaul
No. The way to raise revenue is to get people back to work. Specifically promote policies that are favorable to small business and encourage investment. You can raise taxes to a degree and certainly reform the idiotic code, but that alone won't really solve the problem.

But the President has made it clear that tax reform/increase is just the first step, a necessary step. He laid out his spending reduction plan which included less borrowing, entitlements, etc. The idea is that the House approves the Senate bill that would raise taxes on 2% of the population, the President signs it into law, then the two sides get together to hammer out a spending reduction deal.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:00 AM   #55
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

And right on cue, the weeper of the house throws a ridiculous wrench into the game
Boehner: Obamacare on table for 'fiscal cliff' talks



(CNN) As congressional leaders and President Barack Obama search for common ground to tame the national debt as the weeks dwindle down to end of the year, House Speaker John Boehner said the Affordable Care Act, often referred to as Obamacare, must be included in deficit negotiations.

"We can't afford it, and we can't afford to leave it intact," Boehner wrote of Obama's signature healthcare initiative in the Cincinnati Enquirer. "That's why I've been clear that the law has to stay on the table as both parties discuss ways to solve our nation's massive debt challenge."

Follow the Ticker on Twitter: @PoliticalTicker

Though Republicans have continually pushed for a full repeal of the law, Obama's re-election marked the next step in its implementation. Each state is required to decide whether to set up its own health care exchange - where individuals and small businesses can purchase affordable health care, subsidizing insurance for low-income consumers - or choose to have the federal government manage the state's exchange.

In the editorial Boehner lauded Ohio Governor John Kasich's decision Friday refusing to set up a state-run exchange, the result being the federal government management of the state's health care exchange.

As states decide how to comply with the law, leaders from both parties are in the midst of contentious dealings on how to reduce the nation's debt and avoid the so-called fiscal cliff a series of federal spending cuts and tax rates increases set to go into place at the beginning of next year if Washington lawmakers fail to reach a compromise. At the crux of deficit negotiations is revenue. Republicans want to generate revenue by closing loopholes and tax deductions while Democrats have favored raising tax rates on wealthier Americans.

Since former Republican nominee Mitt Romney's defeat and the Supreme Court upheld most of the health care initiative, Boehner said the GOP's "tactics" must change in their effort to repeal Obamacare. Boehner underscored the law's expense and pushed a dismantling of the law through congressional oversight.

"With President Obama and his party still in control of most of Washington, stopping Obamacare will require both bold state leadership and vigorous oversight by members of the House of Representatives," he wrote.

Shortly after the election, Boehner told ABC he would not make repealing the law his mission saying Obamacare was the "law of the land." Boehner later walked back the comment tweeting the GOP's goal remains a full repeal of the law.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...ge-2/#comments
Every stance this guy takes is in direct contradiction to the will of the American people. He is willing to drag our nation into a financial abyss in order to pander to special interests. Like he said recently before doing a 180, Obamacare is now the law of the land. Governors are in the process of implementing the law, the fight for repeal is dead and the lobby for it has been dwindling for a while now:

Public Opinion Snapshot: Public Turns Against Repeal of Obamacare

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Old 12-15-2012, 10:33 PM   #56
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Finally, some real progress
White House says Boehner offered tax increase for entitlement cuts

(Reuters) - U.S. House Speaker John Boehner has offered to raise tax rates on high earners to break the "fiscal cliff" deadlock in exchange for major cuts in entitlement programs, but President Barack Obama is not ready to accept, a source said late Saturday.

While the White House considers Boehner's offer "progress," the source said more remained to be worked out between the two.

Tax rates are a major sticking point in negotiations to avert steep automatic tax hikes and budget cuts set for the end of the year if a deal isn't reached. Republicans have resisted Obama's demand to extend lower tax rates for everyone except top earners, preferring to extend them for all taxpayers.

The Boehner offer was the first departure from the position the House speaker has held for months.

(Editing by Fred Barbash and Todd Eastham)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8BF01I20121216
*Obama is 'not ready to accept' because Boehner wants the cut off to be those earning $1 mil+ instead of $250K and they haven't released info on the rate increase proposed. But the fact the Boehner is willing to go against the Norquist pledge is a major breakthrough IMO. Now it's just about the details since the House Republican leader has agreed to rate increases and the President has put entitlements on the table.

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Old 12-16-2012, 06:29 PM   #57
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Haven't been following the fiscal cliff stuff lately but raising the Medicare age to 67 would be a really bad idea imo. That's the only policy change that I've seen discussed heavily.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:55 PM   #58
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jailblazers7
Haven't been following the fiscal cliff stuff lately but raising the Medicare age to 67 would be a really bad idea imo. That's the only policy change that I've seen discussed heavily.
Why?
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:01 PM   #59
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by raiderfan19
Why?

Because all it would really do is shift the burden of that cost onto seniors age 65-67 by forcing them to pay for private (and more expensive) health insurance. It would be a way for the federal government to cut spending but is that really the spending that should be cut? If anything, that spending is the most social beneficial thing the government does.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:53 PM   #60
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

We all know what spending needs to be cut, it's the big elephant standing in the corner of the room but yet none of them will even mention it.. But instead we have clowns debating on cutting welfare programs or education to cut spending
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