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Old 11-13-2012, 01:56 PM   #31
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Default Re: Who's Seen Do the Right Thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
The walls are symbolic(home, enclosure, decorative, cultural, roots) and thematic (support, images, source of tension, differences) in the movie. Sal's decoration of the wall was perceived selfish and not reflective of the community that supported the business. Sal can do what he wants with the store but his community can too, and did... . Once Sal answers the question, about the wall, and doesn't show respect/value to those who represent his economic support, it sets up a long day of building retribution. To put it simple, the "I'm not like you" answer was the wrong answer on a hot day where tensions were building. The movie is really about the anatomy of a breakdown/riot.

I disagree with that, racism is protected under free speech, destruction of property is a crime. Sal obviously was a racist, and he should have put up some pictures of African Americans or taken that whole wall down. With that side nothing justified the escalation of going to his restaurant and demanding how he decorated his restaurant. It's not a government building its his private property. If it offends you that much just don't go to his restaurant.

I have a friend who works in an adult toy shop and they always get requests to change their store, also threats as well. Whether you agree with the content or not, its legal and private property. If a business offends you, you have the right to deny it your business and protest against it. You cant go on their property and demand they make changes and make yourself a huge nuisance to them.

I am almost a free speech absolutist, the only exception is stuff like shouting fire in a crowded theater. Offensive speech/displays especially needs to be protected since no one has ever objected to non-offensive speech. The offensive nature of speech is also difficult to determine, and thus why all speech not directly inciting violence should be allowed, and is allowed.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:12 PM   #32
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Default Re: Who's Seen Do the Right Thing?

In general the issue with Spike Lee movies is the philosophical themes can interfere with the drama....characters acting out philosophies and not emotions and also his endings. He often bites off more than he can chew in his themes and there's often a lot of loose strands that the ending doesn't wrap up.

I think Do The Right Thing is his best film, but it's still problematic. I think it's the film where his self-consciously sylized filmmaking working the best. However, there are still issues with the film. One issue is the ending is structurally unbalanced. The cops killed Radio Raheem, Sal didn't. Sal is a character who has been developed and who the audience, especially the white audience identifies with. This is not the case with the cops, even though they are white there is not an automatic identification with the police characters and this is taken further by the fact that the cops were clearly wrong. (How would the movie read, if Raheem's death was more ambiguous,) So the structural imbalance is why does Sal need to suffer? Sal is not at fault.

There's also the question of does a movie endorse the actions of its characters. Was Mookie right? Does the fact that he is played by the writer/director change this to an endorsement?
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:14 PM   #33
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Default Re: Who's Seen Do the Right Thing?

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Sal can do what he wants with the store but his community can too, and did..

Quote:
Originally Posted by MavsSuperFan
I disagree with that, racism is protected under free speech, destruction of property is a crime.

I suspect he is talking about complaining about the wall, not the end of the movie.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:38 PM   #34
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Default Re: Who's Seen Do the Right Thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
The walls are symbolic(home, enclosure, decorative, cultural, roots) and thematic (support, images, source of tension, differences) in the movie. Sal's decoration of the wall was perceived selfish and not reflective of the community that supported the business. Sal can do what he wants with the store but his community can too, and did... . Once Sal answers the question, about the wall, and doesn't show respect/value to those who represent his economic support, it sets up a long day of building retribution. To put it simple, the "I'm not like you" answer was the wrong answer on a hot day where tensions were building. The movie is really about the anatomy of a breakdown/riot.

I agree with that assessment... But I also see Sal's side of it, which was more of a traditional idea of what it means to own a business. While people in bed-stuy were feeling neglected, Sal looked at it as his heritage, and in a better situation (like you said that was the straw that broke the camel's back) with no tension, maybe they could have grown closer together by learning to appreciate the people who Sal considered to be important (they were on the wall)

Quote:
Just wondering why do you sometimes feel Asian and Italian owned businesses are parasites to your communities?

I mean people don't need to shop in a store, you always have the choice of denying them your business right?

Growing up, there was usually tension between owners of certain businesses in the neighborhood, and the people who lived in the neighborhood.

the most common example is Asian vs Black. Some of the owners of the stores seemed to act as if they hated the people in the community, but yet they still set their business up there and they dont seem to mind all the money they collect from these people.

The way the tension builds is similar to what happened in the movie...

The corner store in a black neighborhood serves as evrything because alot of the poorest people cannot afford to go anywhere else...

If you ever have a chance... do some research on super markets... How few super markets are in the poorest communities.. The corner store becomes the super market... The people who live in the community feel tied to the stores because that is all there is... The Asian owners of the store may not speak good english, and may have problems with some black kids either mocking them, or stealing, or whatever else (too many asians on the wall )

but eventually, the daily tensions build up into general resentment.. Asians are wary.. The bullet proof glass in a chinese store is 10Xs as thick as any bank window.... Thats real... So I see the Asian side of it too. They arent used to this culture, the communication isnt what it should be, and the danger can be real...

Thats what this movie is displaying IMO.. what happens when different groups stop communitcating and look at each other as enemies...

They actually all live together and need each other, but everybody gets pushed to the limit by their own perceived realities
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:44 PM   #35
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Default Re: Who's Seen Do the Right Thing?

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Originally Posted by AK47DR91
Film is overrated, and it's considered to be Spike's best work.

I don't know what my opinion is on racism. I just try my best not to get involve in it. By this, I mean I try not to play a victim of it and definitely not one myself. I do have that "race/ethnic pride" feeling sometimes but I try my best not to express it in front of people.

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Old 11-13-2012, 02:44 PM   #36
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Default Re: Who's Seen Do the Right Thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
Growing up, there was usually tension between owners of certain businesses in the neighborhood, and the people who lived in the neighborhood.

the most common example is Asian vs Black. Some of the owners of the stores seemed to act as if they hated the people in the community, but yet they still set their business up there and they dont seem to mind all the money they collect from these people.

The way the tension builds is similar to what happened in the movie...

The corner store in a black neighborhood serves as evrything because alot of the poorest people cannot afford to go anywhere else...

If you ever have a chance... do some research on super markets... How few super markets are in the poorest communities.. The corner store becomes the super market... The people who live in the community feel tied to the stores because that is all there is... The Asian owners of the store may not speak good english, and may have problems with some black kids either mocking them, or stealing, or whatever else (too many asians on the wall )

but eventually, the daily tensions build up into general resentment.. Asians are wary.. The bullet proof glass in a chinese store is 10Xs as thick as any bank window.... Thats real... So I see the Asian side of it too. They arent used to this culture, the communication isnt what it should be, and the danger can be real...

Thats what this movie is displaying IMO.. what happens when different groups stop communitcating and look at each other as enemies...

They actually all live together and need each other, but everybody gets pushed to the limit by their own perceived realities

Ty for your perspective, that sucks if your so dependent on one store I imagine. I guess I never realized some people are so dependent on one business. I also hate it when I get blamed for other peoples actions. I imagine walking into a store and the feeling that the owner suspects I am going to steal from him or pull a gun on him must suck.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:49 PM   #37
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Default Re: Who's Seen Do the Right Thing?

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One issue is the ending is structurally unbalanced. The cops killed Radio Raheem, Sal didn't. Sal is a character who has been developed and who the audience, especially the white audience identifies with. This is not the case with the cops, even though they are white there is not an automatic identification with the police characters and this is taken further by the fact that the cops were clearly wrong. (How would the movie read, if Raheem's death was more ambiguous,) So the structural imbalance is why does Sal need to suffer? Sal is not at fault.


That is not a mistake as far as see it... The point is clear to me that Sal was never the bad guy... Sal suffers because he is only one they can take it out on..

Earlier in the movie people were able to interact with each other and learn about one another....

mookie learned alot about how Sal's kid thought about blacks by talking to him.. It was uneasy, but it was informative.. I think things could have gotten better from there if they would have realized that they are more allies than enemies...

P.S
This movie was also made post Yusef Hawkins, and some other bensonhurst stuff, so I think it is a little less volatile in NY then it was then.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:24 PM   #38
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Default Re: Who's Seen Do the Right Thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MavsSuperFan
I disagree with that, racism is protected under free speech, destruction of property is a crime. Sal obviously was a racist, and he should have put up some pictures of African Americans or taken that whole wall down. With that side nothing justified the escalation of going to his restaurant and demanding how he decorated his restaurant. It's not a government building its his private property. If it offends you that much just don't go to his restaurant.

I have a friend who works in an adult toy shop and they always get requests to change their store, also threats as well. Whether you agree with the content or not, its legal and private property. If a business offends you, you have the right to deny it your business and protest against it. You cant go on their property and demand they make changes and make yourself a huge nuisance to them.

I am almost a free speech absolutist, the only exception is stuff like shouting fire in a crowded theater. Offensive speech/displays especially needs to be protected since no one has ever objected to non-offensive speech. The offensive nature of speech is also difficult to determine, and thus why all speech not directly inciting violence should be allowed, and is allowed.

The movie isn't making a statement about what is legal and what isn't. In fact, the movie is about when legality has no more significance. The movie is about a riot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KEVINYC
I think Do The Right Thing is his best film, but it's still problematic. I think it's the film where his self-consciously sylized filmmaking working the best. However, there are still issues with the film. One issue is the ending is structurally unbalanced. The cops killed Radio Raheem, Sal didn't. Sal is a character who has been developed and who the audience, especially the white audience identifies with. This is not the case with the cops, even though they are white there is not an automatic identification with the police characters and this is taken further by the fact that the cops were clearly wrong. (How would the movie read, if Raheem's death was more ambiguous,) So the structural imbalance is why does Sal need to suffer? Sal is not at fault.

There's also the question of does a movie endorse the actions of its characters. Was Mookie right? Does the fact that he is played by the writer/director change this to an endorsement?
Sal represents the liberal that unknowingly breeds (his sons) racism. Sal can't solve the problem, in fact he's the one that keeps it cool, til it gets too hot. If the obvious racist were the reason or retaliated against nobody is going to look at the more subtle realities that contribute to a riot type situation.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:47 PM   #39
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Default Re: Who's Seen Do the Right Thing?

At that time on college campuses, there was a lot of talk about images all over the place. So the wall is really key to understanding the times, tension and reality. The images in Hip Hop were beginning to be scrutinized as well as the ones in churches and history books. While a couple of you here are calling it trivial, it was being considered a critical betrayal against the black community at that time. The pictures are a form of alienation. You won't see an all African American picture wall in an Asian or White community. African American's deal with this alienation all the time. During the recent war, there were Afghanistan teens in the desert walking and talking like African Americans (video versions) but I'm sure they didn't have the pictures of them on the wall, particularly at the exclusion of everybody else. The Jesus in the bible shouldn't look like the pictures drawn of him. So the picture game goes a way back and was valued for hundreds of years.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:58 PM   #40
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Default Re: Who's Seen Do the Right Thing?

That movie makes me angry and sad. Mostly angry. Maybe the best film to come out of the 80s. No movie touches on America quite like that one. It stands the test of time.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:59 PM   #41
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Default Re: Who's Seen Do the Right Thing?

Also very poetic movie. The characters are poetic its a loveletter to Brooklyn as well. Shakespeare probably be proud.
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:49 PM   #42
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Default Re: Who's Seen Do the Right Thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
The movie isn't making a statement about what is legal and what isn't. In fact, the movie is about when legality has no more significance. The movie is about a riot.

Sal represents the liberal that unknowingly breeds (his sons) racism. Sal can't solve the problem, in fact he's the one that keeps it cool, til it gets too hot. If the obvious racist were the reason or retaliated against nobody is going to look at the more subtle realities that contribute to a riot type situation.

Wow. I never thought of Sal as a liberal.
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:07 PM   #43
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Default Re: Who's Seen Do the Right Thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
That is not a mistake as far as see it... The point is clear to me that Sal was never the bad guy... Sal suffers because he is only one they can take it out on..
P.S
This movie was also made post Yusef Hawkins, and some other bensonhurst stuff, so I think it is a little less volatile in NY then it was then.

That's pretty much exactly the inbalance I'm talking about. You have the killing of Radio Raheem done by pretty much characters we really don't know and don't identify with, then you have a further tragedy committed against one of the main characters who is not the bad guy and this tragedy is shown in a much more deliberate fashion. The cops were not shown as wanting to kill Radio Raheem, it just got out of hand, but when Mookie picks up the garbage can, it's methodical, it's a conscious decision. And since unlike the cops, this is an action by the other main character, it feels like a violation.

I do remember Yusef Hawkins, but the movie came out a month before that incident. It was post Howard Beach.
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:15 PM   #44
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Default Re: Who's Seen Do the Right Thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
That is not a mistake as far as see it... The point is clear to me that Sal was never the bad guy... Sal suffers because he is only one they can take it out on..

Earlier in the movie people were able to interact with each other and learn about one another....

mookie learned alot about how Sal's kid thought about blacks by talking to him.. It was uneasy, but it was informative.. I think things could have gotten better from there if they would have realized that they are more allies than enemies...

P.S
This movie was also made post Yusef Hawkins, and some other bensonhurst stuff, so I think it is a little less volatile in NY then it was then.

Not a little, it's a lot. Like i said before, by no means am i saying we are perfect and colorblind but that time was angry and there was constant tension all over. It's not like that anymore all over. There are pockets here and there. Bensonhurst isn't like that at all, it can't be it's been invaded by asians. When i grew up in Bensonhurst i'd visit my cousin and you were kind of told you were ok if you were a light PR like me, not dark and not "too spanish". TOtally different time. I was in the midst of two separate riots in JHS. I mean riots, flipping cars, burning things, cops fighting with kids. I also got really dirty stairs for whatever chinese girl i had on my arm by the asian community. Now it's practically required the girls have a non chinese guy it feels like.

A thing about the movie that gets you is the mob mentality. It's amazing how fast people's tensions about race could boil over. It's really true. We used to play basketball with the more religious jewish kids, but one day when one of them came down and refused to play on anyone's team but his own people. It ****ed everything up and all of a sudden we had divides all over. Because of one douche who had to be only with "his kind".

80's Brooklyn vs. Now Brooklyn is a different world. A lot of it was the influx of the asian communities, they grew exponentially, moved into black and white areas that weren't very accepting and forced them to be accepting by changing the balance. The property values went up too, rich people don't riot.
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:06 PM   #45
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Default Re: Who's Seen Do the Right Thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinNYC
Wow. I never thought of Sal as a liberal.
In effect he is (we know very little of his politics). He's closer to the black community than most other non-blacks, sobeit, he has a wall up that keeps the them at a distance. He doesn't seem racist and my bet is that the community in general likes him. He does seem to have a racist carrier gene because there are things in his children that seem inherited. In the clip below pay attention to the images. In front of the biggest image on the wall, (the Coliseum) Pipino is questioned and should not be racist as the images of blacks are some of his favorite people. Also note that Prince is primarily not an image but related to thru his music - Eddie and Magic are images. The scene progresses into its epic racist rant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOxOR3x8FBQ

Usually, the racist attitude is inherited from the father. Spike was pointing at Sal for examination.
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