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Old 11-17-2012, 08:29 AM   #151
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Default Re: Romney says Obama won by showering black, Latino & young voters with big gifts.

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Originally Posted by joe
Do some rich people get their millions by leeching off of government? Do they get rich by screwing over the people, by using the government to fix the laws in their favor? Yes. But those aren't the people I'm talking defending. The rich people we should praise are the ones who make their money honestly, through voluntary market exchange. The guys who create a product or service we all love. Sure they get rich off of it, but why shouldn't they? Things like handheld foot massagers, recliner chairs, chess boards... why shouldn't the people who manufacture these things get rich? They provide us with great products at great prices. I don't see why I'm supposed to hate these guys, or why I'm supposed to prefer the government to be spending their profits rather than them.

Yes, and this is the same defense the liberals use for welfare, but they will no doubt denounce this.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:33 AM   #152
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Default Re: Romney says Obama won by showering black, Latino & young voters with big gifts.

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Old 11-17-2012, 10:48 AM   #153
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Default Re: Romney says Obama won by showering black, Latino & young voters with big gifts.

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Originally Posted by Math2
Of course, if you believe the crap Obama says.



Obama wasnt the guy speaking on the conference call with Romney's DONORS.

This is how delusional Romney and GOP are.. Romney is on a call explaining to his billionaire donors what went wrong. Romney's excuse is to say that Obama won because he gave people "gifts"


WTF were his donors expecting from him? nothing?

yet none of this strikes Mitt as totally absurd while he was rattling off excuses...

Thank God he lost
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:52 AM   #154
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Default Re: Romney says Obama won by showering black, Latino & young voters with big gifts.

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Is that McKayla's mom in the blue?
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:15 AM   #155
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Default Re: Romney says Obama won by showering black, Latino & young voters with big gifts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
No, I can't clearly see that. All I've seen is a bunch of statistics thrown out. Statistics don't prove anything definitively. I'm not anti-statistic, but statistics can only be used to buffer your argument, they can't be the entire basis of your argument. I can just as easily say all of those economies would have been doing EVEN BETTER with lower tax rates, and at that point it's just my word against yours. There's no substance to anything you posted. There's plenty of statistics that show the 19th century in America was the greatest century EVER in terms of improving the living standards of humans, and this occurred with a zero percent income tax and a gold standard! So are you going to change your position to be pro-gold standard now? According to the way you argue your case, you should.

Please explain why raising taxes on the rich would improve the economy, without using any statistics. Explain why! Why does that make any sense? Why would taking money from some people who earned it, and then giving it to the government, create a better economy? Just explain how that makes any sense. Please. I'm not saying a good argument can't be made, but I haven't seen it yet in this thread.

And to say Romney has "built his entire economic plan" around lower taxes is ridiculous. Romney supports barely lower taxes than Obama. I support ZERO income tax. Romney is hardly better than Obama on taxes...he's a marginal difference.
But if we didn't tax income, how would we be able to fund our Military? Our Police force? Our fire DPT? To name a few?
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:41 AM   #156
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Default Re: Romney says Obama won by showering black, Latino & young voters with big gifts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
I didn't say it's easy to be poor, and I do not villify the poor. I for one grew up in a lower income family. I do not trivialize the difficult of growing up without a lot of money.

I am just talking about the reality of the situation. If all income above $250,000 is taxed at 50%, less people will strive to earn $250,000 than if the tax was 0%. If you raise the tax to 60%, even less people will strive for $250,000. Why put all the time and effort into building a business if the government is just going to tax half your income?

"Yeah but rich people only pay like 2 cents in taxes in America!"

Non-sense. Some do, if they earn their money off of dividends. But don't forget, those dividends were already taxed when the corporation paid their 35% tax. So though the dividends are only taxed at like 12%, they were already taxed once before at a much higher rate. Add them up, and the true rate is much higher than any secretary pays (and Warren Buffet is full of you-know-what).

And if you run a business, and thus earn "income" as opposed to dividends, you are paying 35% in taxes. Add to that your state tax, entitlement tax, sales tax, and you're approaching 50% taxes, or even higher in some states! Half of the money that you worked your ass off to earn... gone. Why do we want to do this to rich business people? These are people that create jobs, provide services, truly add value to society... and we punish them by taking half of their money. Forget how the rich person feels about this, why should even the POOR feel good about this? It's not to our advantage to treat rich people like this, just from a practical standpoint. We want these guys creating jobs and inventing new products for us to use. We don't want them giving half of their money to Washington, so they can blow it on drone strikes and dimwit regulators salary.
Rich people more than get their fair share of tax breaks bro



http://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxe...or-rich-1.aspx
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:11 PM   #157
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Default Re: Romney says Obama won by showering black, Latino & young voters with big gifts.



yea I think thats her mother.

I was only half paying attention when they did a quick clip on TV though.

Last edited by kentatm : 11-17-2012 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:44 PM   #158
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Default Re: Romney says Obama won by showering black, Latino & young voters with big gifts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
I didn't say it's easy to be poor, and I do not villify the poor. I for one grew up in a lower income family. I do not trivialize the difficult of growing up without a lot of money.

I am just talking about the reality of the situation. If all income above $250,000 is taxed at 50%, less people will strive to earn $250,000 than if the tax was 0%. If you raise the tax to 60%, even less people will strive for $250,000. Why put all the time and effort into building a business if the government is just going to tax half your income?

"Yeah but rich people only pay like 2 cents in taxes in America!"

Non-sense. Some do, if they earn their money off of dividends. But don't forget, those dividends were already taxed when the corporation paid their 35% tax. So though the dividends are only taxed at like 12%, they were already taxed once before at a much higher rate. Add them up, and the true rate is much higher than any secretary pays (and Warren Buffet is full of you-know-what).

And if you run a business, and thus earn "income" as opposed to dividends, you are paying 35% in taxes. Add to that your state tax, entitlement tax, sales tax, and you're approaching 50% taxes, or even higher in some states! Half of the money that you worked your ass off to earn... gone. Why do we want to do this to rich business people? These are people that create jobs, provide services, truly add value to society... and we punish them by taking half of their money. Forget how the rich person feels about this, why should even the POOR feel good about this? It's not to our advantage to treat rich people like this, just from a practical standpoint. We want these guys creating jobs and inventing new products for us to use. We don't want them giving half of their money to Washington, so they can blow it on drone strikes and dimwit regulators salary.

Apparently, you're forgetting that ~75% of USA's net worth is in 10% of the country (top 1% has 35% of the total wealth). You can bitch all you want about taxes being unfair to the top 1% or top 5%, but you will NEVER be able to refute the fact that the rich continue to get much richer while the rest of us are where we have been for past 30 years (or in many cases, rest of us are getting worse off).

You can complain about how we have a socialistic government or how the rich's wealth is unfairly being redistributed to the poor. The redistribution was already done and it was to the rich through policies the last 30+ years; what you're complaining about is a reredistribution to make sure nobody is unfairly treated. But here's the kicker: the rich continue to garner more and more wealth. Can you explain how if they are taxed more than half of their income? You're making it seem as if anyone making more than $250,000 is worse off than those making less. Perhaps you're forgetting the fact that a lot of them use loopholes (some legal, some illegal) to put a lot of their money in Cayman Islands or Switzerland or someplace where they can avoid paying a big chunk of their tax. What many of them are being taxed is AFTER the loopholes have been applied..

The average American making $60,000 cannot legally transfer money to Switzerland or someplace to bypass taxes that a corporate entity may be able to with legal loopholes. It would be too obvious to do it illegally if you only make $60,000 to begin with and parts of it disappear (if you're making millions, a couple $50,000 here and another $50,000 there disappearing won't be as noticeable), and it's also not cheap to run an overseas bank account. They probably cannot afford to store money overseas if most of their income is used up to pay mortgages, pay creditcard/electricity/etc bills while make a living.

You can jump up and down, scream at top of your lungs, cry or punch a wall somewhere. You will never be able to refute that fact. That's the reality.

Last edited by bladefd : 11-17-2012 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:04 PM   #159
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Default Re: Romney says Obama won by showering black, Latino & young voters with big gifts.

oh and don't forget about capital gains. They are taxed at 15% for those with money to invest or create bonds. I almost forgot about that. I just remembered the whole 'Buffett is taxed lower rate than his secretary' case. There are a lot of other ways/loopholes that can be used and are used.
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:25 PM   #160
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Default Re: Romney says Obama won by showering black, Latino & young voters with big gifts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1


Obama wasnt the guy speaking on the conference call with Romney's DONORS.

This is how delusional Romney and GOP are.. Romney is on a call explaining to his billionaire donors what went wrong. Romney's excuse is to say that Obama won because he gave people "gifts"


WTF were his donors expecting from him? nothing?

yet none of this strikes Mitt as totally absurd while he was rattling off excuses...

Thank God he lost

What were Obama's millionaire donors expecting from him?
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:52 PM   #161
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Default Re: Romney says Obama won by showering black, Latino & young voters with big gifts.

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Originally Posted by Math2
What were Obama's millionaire donors expecting from him?

They were expecting hope and change They were expecting something in return as do all constituents..

Romney is talking like his donors werent expecting a 5 trillion tax cut, more subsidies from the government they hate, and less regulations if he got into office


if healthcare and the dream act are gifts? then so are tax cuts and policy changes to the benefit of the 1%
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:31 PM   #162
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Default Re: Romney says Obama won by showering black, Latino & young voters with big gifts.

Mitt, don't go away mad
Mitt, just go away
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Old 11-18-2012, 01:08 AM   #163
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Default Re: Romney says Obama won by showering black, Latino & young voters with big gifts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladefd
what you're complaining about is a reredistribution to make sure nobody is unfairly treated. But here's the kicker: the rich continue to garner more and more wealth. Can you explain how if they are taxed more than half of their income?

Not all rich are taxed at 50%, but some are. If you own a business, or earn your money through income, that's where the truly high tax rates are. I'll explain how. The corporate tax can vary from 15-35%, so for some they are paying 35% off the bat. Throw in medicare/medicaid, another 3-4%. And then if you live in say California, they have a 14% state income tax. Many states have 7-8% income tax. So you're up to about 45%, maybe more in some states. Throw in sales tax on everything you buy, or dividend taxes on your investments.. and you're in that 50% ballpark. Likely more for some people.

Other rich people who make all of their money through stocks are only taxed at about 12%. That's what Warren Buffet was referring to with his whole "I pay lower taxes than my secretary" bit. But in fact that's very misleading. Warren Buffet may only pay 12% on his dividends, but the corporation that pays his dividends was already taxed once, shrinking the amount of money he is able to earn from them. If they are taxed at 35%, you can really just consider that a 35% tax on Warren Buffet's dividends. Warren Buffet isn't being directly taxed, but the corporations pass those taxes on down to stockholders.
Quote:
You can complain about how we have a socialistic government or how the rich's wealth is unfairly being redistributed to the poor. The redistribution was already done and it was to the rich through policies the last 30+ years;

I honestly don't disagree with you. There has been a massive redistribution of wealth from the poor/middle class to the rich. But this isn't happening through free market capitalism, it's happening through government channels. When the federal reserve prints money, it lowers the value of the dollar. This affects the poor the most, since they're less likely to be holding non-dollar assets. The rich guy owns a business, he owns real estate, he owns stocks, precious metals. The poor person just has dollars, and if those are devalued, he has nothing else to fall back on. Corporations use the government to give them special powers, and pass laws that put their competitors out of business, etc, another blow to poor/middle class. The poor have been systematically attacked in this country, but the answer to that isn't to give the government more power, to pass more laws, more regulation agencies, etc. The answer is to introduce more freedom into the economy, get the government out of the way, and allow society to build itself up through market exchange. That's what I think is the best thing for the poor.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:19 AM   #164
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Default Re: Romney says Obama won by showering black, Latino & young voters with big gifts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
I honestly don't disagree with you. There has been a massive redistribution of wealth from the poor/middle class to the rich. But this isn't happening through free market capitalism, it's happening through government channels. When the federal reserve prints money, it lowers the value of the dollar. This affects the poor the most, since they're less likely to be holding non-dollar assets. The rich guy owns a business, he owns real estate, he owns stocks, precious metals. The poor person just has dollars, and if those are devalued, he has nothing else to fall back on. Corporations use the government to give them special powers, and pass laws that put their competitors out of business, etc, another blow to poor/middle class. The poor have been systematically attacked in this country, but the answer to that isn't to give the government more power, to pass more laws, more regulation agencies, etc. The answer is to introduce more freedom into the economy, get the government out of the way, and allow society to build itself up through market exchange. That's what I think is the best thing for the poor.

That is what we already had through the 80s and 90s. Look at the corruption wallstreet has had, and they were getting away with it since there was no real watchdog. The private sector was booming sure, but at what cost? CEOs and other top administrators were getting multi-million bonuses on top of the millions they were already making.

I don't know about you but I come from the train of thought that the private and public sector are DIRECTLY connected. You can't be completely hands-off and let the private sector do whatever they want, however they want, whenever they want, the way they see fit within their own law guidelines. Somebody has to ensure that they follow the law like the rest of us. For decades now, they were getting away with murder. I'm not saying to go back to the FDR days during the whole black depression days when the government basically took complete control to shimmer down the depression and get things to normalcy. I am simply saying you just need a watchdog to ensure they follow the law like the rest of us.

Who else would you be willing to be the watchdog? We have been letting the inmates run the asylum for some time now, and we have seen that rampant corruption. While it was rolling and profits were rolling in, there were little or no complaints. When things started to fell apart in mid-2000s, they come to the public sector and federal/state governments begging to be let off the hook. You tell me. Who watches over them? Let them watch over themselves again or does somebody else? If somebody else does, how do you want them to? How do they get appointed?

anyways, gotta get going. more discussion tomorrow
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:46 AM   #165
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Default Re: Romney says Obama won by showering black, Latino & young voters with big gifts.

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After you win your 2nd term election and can't get reelected anymore, you get to take pictures like that.......
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