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Old 11-25-2012, 08:05 AM   #46
Math2
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Default Re: PA College Slashes Instructors' Hours to Avoid Obamacare.

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Originally Posted by boozehound
what exactly are you basing this on? All of the various projections suggest that obamacare, as flawed as it is, will see an overall savings. Included in this is are some of the various measures already in place, such as the mandate that a certain % of your premium has to be used towards actual medical costs. Shocking, amirite?

As usual, you come in here a complete blowhard, with no substantive points or even wiki CnP's that support your argument.

There is a reason why we pay the highest cost (by a long shot) for the 28th? best care in the world. There is a reason why healthcare is 20% of the entire economy, and much of it is middleman bullshit industries that dont really do much. There is a reason why the shitty little country of cuba can negotiate better drug prices than bluecross/blueshield. There is a reason why we are the only country with such an antiquated and parasitic healthcare industry still in place.


You have no real points. My point I'm making is that health care is going to cost more now. Why? If you can't figure that out....You're crazy.


As the government implements more regulations and mandates (26 years old on parent's plan, must accept preexisting conditions), health care goes up. It's not like having the company accept almost everyone is going to lower costs.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:31 AM   #47
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Default Re: PA College Slashes Instructors' Hours to Avoid Obamacare.

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Originally Posted by longhornfan1234
How am I getting owned?
lol you're oblivious to everything. Dumb people often are.
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:09 AM   #48
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Default Re: PA College Slashes Instructors' Hours to Avoid Obamacare.

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Originally Posted by Math2
You critisie me for "echoing talking points" while you copy and paste crap without reading it.

First off, you completely misunderstood my point. I said that even though health care costs have been rising, they will rise much, much faster now that Obamacare is law. What you posted had nothing to do with my post....

Yet inside of your post (and all the info inside you didn't read), you'll find why health care costs have been rising. Government spending.

I see our disconnect. You don't know the difference between facts (what I posted) and talking points ("even though health care costs have been rising, they will rise much, much faster now that Obamacare is law") , a broad generalization for which there is no basis in fact.

You highlighted the increase in the % gov't spends on health care (up from 24 to 48% since 1960) as if it proves some point. But these numbers have nothing to do with the AHCA; they were compiled in 2010. They instead are almost a deadon reflection of our population growth since 1960. When you factor in that the % of our population that are retired seniors has increased far disproportionate to the population growth, government has actually done a fairly decent job keeping their share of the costs in line.

The % private insurance companies pay has gone up 50% during that same time period. They're not going to volunteer to pay more.

Meanwhile, the individual consumers share of the pie has dropped by 50%. It's ironic that those that rail against entitlements overlook that we've been riding a gravy train as it pertains to our share of our health cars costs for 50 years.

The main reasons the consumers costs raise every year are simple: (1) the burden of covering the cost of the uninsured, who seek out care at emergency rooms, the one place they know they legally can't be turned away and (2) the unchecked nature of the industry itself. Privatization has been a colossal failure and put us in the spot we are now. The argument that a free market drug/medical system is going to self regulate is laughable. They'll squeeze every penny they can from the payers, blaming their exorbitant cost increases on R&D.

As to (1), the uninsured put such a burden on the aspect of our system that has the highest operating costs to begin with that they have little choice but to charge ridiculous fees for services that could easily be handled at out patient clinics or general practicioner's offices. Preventive care isn't an option for the uninsured. And when you actually do require catastrophic treatment, the costs are passed along to you. That's why most estimates show that medical bankruptcies make up roughly 60% of all those in the courts.

There is nothing inherent in the AHCA that indicates that increases in cost will come anywhere near the growth of the last few decades. Reducing the rolls of the uninsured and regulating industry pricing practices are the simple, most reasonable steps toward fixing a system that is way beyond broken.

But if you're against the government involving itself, and you don't think the private insurance companies should be regulated, and you think the individual consumer shouldn't have to pay closer to their share of the costs...where exactly should the money come from? Or do we continue down the same disastrous path that has been ignored or addressed ineffectually by Republicans and Democrats alike for the last 50 years?

Last edited by JMT : 11-25-2012 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:29 PM   #49
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Default Re: PA College Slashes Instructors' Hours to Avoid Obamacare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMT
I see our disconnect. You don't know the difference between facts (what I posted) and talking points ("even though health care costs have been rising, they will rise much, much faster now that Obamacare is law") , a broad generalization for which there is no basis in fact.

You highlighted the increase in the % gov't spends on health care (up from 24 to 48% since 1960) as if it proves some point. But these numbers have nothing to do with the AHCA; they were compiled in 2010. They instead are almost a deadon reflection of our population growth since 1960. When you factor in that the % of our population that are retired seniors has increased far disproportionate to the population growth, government has actually done a fairly decent job keeping their share of the costs in line.

The % private insurance companies pay has gone up 50% during that same time period. They're not going to volunteer to pay more.

Meanwhile, the individual consumers share of the pie has dropped by 50%. It's ironic that those that rail against entitlements overlook that we've been riding a gravy train as it pertains to our share of our health cars costs for 50 years.

The main reasons the consumers costs raise every year are simple: (1) the burden of covering the cost of the uninsured, who seek out care at emergency rooms, the one place they know they legally can't be turned away and (2) the unchecked nature of the industry itself. Privatization has been a colossal failure and put us in the spot we are now. The argument that a free market drug/medical system is going to self regulate is laughable. They'll squeeze every penny they can from the payers, blaming their exorbitant cost increases on R&D.

As to (1), the uninsured put such a burden on the aspect of our system that has the highest operating costs to begin with that they have little choice but to charge ridiculous fees for services that could easily be handled at out patient clinics or general practicioner's offices. Preventive care isn't an option for the uninsured. And when you actually do require catastrophic treatment, the costs are passed along to you. That's why most estimates show that medical bankruptcies make up roughly 60% of all those in the courts.

There is nothing inherent in the AHCA that indicates that increases in cost will come anywhere near the growth of the last few decades. Reducing the rolls of the uninsured and regulating industry pricing practices are the simple, most reasonable steps toward fixing a system that is way beyond broken.

But if you're against the government involving itself, and you don't think the private insurance companies should be regulated, and you think the individual consumer shouldn't have to pay closer to their share of the costs...where exactly should the money come from? Or do we continue down the same disastrous path that has been ignored or addressed ineffectually by Republicans and Democrats alike for the last 50 years?


It does have basis in fact. It's crazy to think that FORCING insurance companies to cover more people (more people that may or may not cost lots in medical insurance) doesn't bring up rates. No, I don't have facts to back that up, frankly because the future hasn't happened yet. I never said government spending had anything to do with Obamacare, however much you'd like me to have said that. I said that having the government pay for peoples insurance raises costs. It's the same idea as college costs. Why have they risen? Because of government interference.

Do people not pay insurance companies? Is that not even included in your figures? Gravy train my ass.

Your argument is basically that Obamacare isn't going to make it worse because they are getting rid of uninsured persons? Again, it's not going to help making companies cover more people, in effect costing them more, and then they pass the cost onto you. It's simple.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:59 PM   #50
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Default Re: PA College Slashes Instructors' Hours to Avoid Obamacare.

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Originally Posted by Math2
It does have basis in fact. It's crazy to think that FORCING insurance companies to cover more people (more people that may or may not cost lots in medical insurance) doesn't bring up rates. No, I don't have facts to back that up, frankly because the future hasn't happened yet. I never said government spending had anything to do with Obamacare, however much you'd like me to have said that. I said that having the government pay for peoples insurance raises costs. It's the same idea as college costs. Why have they risen? Because of government interference.

Do people not pay insurance companies? Is that not even included in your figures? Gravy train my ass.

Your argument is basically that Obamacare isn't going to make it worse because they are getting rid of uninsured persons? Again, it's not going to help making companies cover more people, in effect costing them more, and then they pass the cost onto you. It's simple.

Please explain how college costs have risen because the government is paying a higher percentage of the costs, because that's the point you're attempting to make in your first paragraph.

People DO pay insurance companies. It's been included in the facts I presented from the start. What they clearly show is that, while the government and private insurers have seen their share of the costs increase dramatically in the last 50 years, the share that consumers pay has decreased by 50%, all while household income has risen by 150% (even nearly doubling when factoring in inflation). Reading; it's fundamental.

No, my argument is that in the long term, eliminating the drain that the uninsured place on all of us will offset the initial costs of implementing the program. And regulation of the marketplace, instead of the unchecked increases in pricing that insurance companies have been allowed to engage in for decades, will work together to keep prices from inflating at the "worst ever" levels that you continue to claim will occur without a single fact to back it up. Preventive care has been proven to reduce individual costs and the incidence of catastrophic care, which is a huge aspect of why health care costs have run amok.

Last edited by JMT : 11-25-2012 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:45 PM   #51
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Default Re: PA College Slashes Instructors' Hours to Avoid Obamacare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMT
Please explain how college costs have risen because the government is paying a higher percentage of the costs, because that's the point you're attempting to make in your first paragraph.

People DO pay insurance companies. It's been included in the facts I presented from the start. What they clearly show is that, while the government and private insurers have seen their share of the costs increase dramatically in the last 50 years, the share that consumers pay has decreased by 50%, all while household income has risen by 150% (even nearly doubling when factoring in inflation). Reading; it's fundamental.

No, my argument is that in the long term, eliminating the drain that the uninsured place on all of us will offset the initial costs of implementing the program. And regulation of the marketplace, instead of the unchecked increases in pricing that insurance companies have been allowed to engage in for decades, will work together to keep prices from inflating at the "worst ever" levels that you continue to claim will occur without a single fact to back it up. Preventive care has been proven to reduce individual costs and the incidence of catastrophic care, which is a huge aspect of why health care costs have run amok.

Simple supply/demand. There are more people able to pay for it now, so that raises prices for everyone else.

I'm not sure that your data includes money paid to insurance companies, and couldn't find any evidence that they did on their site, or the source they cited.
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:12 PM   #52
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Default Re: PA College Slashes Instructors' Hours to Avoid Obamacare.

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Originally Posted by Math2
Simple supply/demand. There are more people able to pay for it now, so that raises prices for everyone else.

I'm not sure that your data includes money paid to insurance companies, and couldn't find any evidence that they did on their site, or the source they cited.

No, it's well beyond simple supply/demand. That's the "talking point". The reality is that there are strict regulations put in play against insurance companies.

Under the new act, in every state and for the first time under federal law, insurance companies are required to publicly justify any rate increase of over 10%.

Additionally, insurance companies must provide consumers greater value by spending generally at least 80 percent of premium dollars on health care and quality improvements instead of overhead, executive salaries or marketing. If they don’t, they must provide consumers a rebate or reduce premiums.

In Colorado, using one example, 208,197 Colorado residents with private insurance coverage will benefit from $27,452,769 in rebates from insurance companies this year. These rebates will average $227 for the 121,000 families in Colorado covered by a policy.

So... Caps on rate increases. More premium dollars going to healthcare, not administrative fees. Covering preventive services with no deductible or copay. Removing lifetime caps on benefits for people with serious illnesses. Creating new options for those with pre-existing conditions.

All those factors tap into the insurance companies pockets. The trade off is they'll get to sell more policies.

Regulates the insurance industry. Insures more people. Encourages preventive instead of emergency care. Results in fewer people indigent, declaring bankruptcy or on government assistance because they've run out of health care benefits.

In no way is there any indication that it results in your stance that "even though health care costs have been rising, they will rise much, much faster now that Obamacare is law".

Last edited by JMT : 11-25-2012 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 11-25-2012, 04:26 PM   #53
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Default Re: PA College Slashes Instructors' Hours to Avoid Obamacare.

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Originally Posted by JMT
No, it's well beyond simple supply/demand. That's the "talking point". The reality is that there are strict regulations put in play against insurance companies.

Under the new act, in every state and for the first time under federal law, insurance companies are required to publicly justify any rate increase of over 10%.

Additionally, insurance companies must provide consumers greater value by spending generally at least 80 percent of premium dollars on health care and quality improvements instead of overhead, executive salaries or marketing. If they donít, they must provide consumers a rebate or reduce premiums.

In Colorado, using one example, 208,197 Colorado residents with private insurance coverage will benefit from $27,452,769 in rebates from insurance companies this year. These rebates will average $227 for the 121,000 families in Colorado covered by a policy.

So... Caps on rate increases. More premium dollars going to healthcare, not administrative fees. Covering preventive services with no deductible or copay. Removing lifetime caps on benefits for people with serious illnesses. Creating new options for those with pre-existing conditions.

All those factors tap into the insurance companies pockets. The trade off is they'll get to sell more policies.

Regulates the insurance industry. Insures more people. Encourages preventive instead of emergency care. Results in fewer people indigent, declaring bankruptcy or on government assistance because they've run out of health care benefits.

In no way is there any indication that it results in your stance that "even though health care costs have been rising, they will rise much, much faster now that Obamacare is law".

Regulation does not solve all. It eliminates competition, which is the driving factor of any product, unless the government decides that it should be the ones who decide prices.

It's an irrelevant point that companies must report any rate increases above 10%, they'll have reason enough to raise rates....

I am not aware of caps on rate increases, unless you are refering to the justification rule.

Yes, all that you said were positive, but so is everyone living on a 50 acre lot with a four story house. Who's paying for it?

Obamacare would be OK if we were living in Candyland, but it's not practical at all for anyone actually paying for their health care. Do you honestly think that Obamacare won't raise premiums? Really?

Obamacare makes companies offer more benefits, which is great, in Candyland. No warning bells in your head there? Forcing them to cover those with pre-existing conditions, coupled with weak penalties to force people to buy healthcare? Major warning bells yet? Think of it like this: Once health care costs inevitably rise as more preexisting condition cases enter the market, Obamacare imposes weak penalties to force people into the market. However, the penalties aren't as much as a healthcare plan costs, which some people will obviously see and they won't join in the system, leaving more high risk people in the system....Ever hear of the adverse selection death spiral? Well, now you'll get to see it first hand!

Don't forget one of the worst provisions in the law: 3:1 community rating for the old, meant to appease AARP. Young people are generally healthier than older people. I think you agree with that. Now think about old people. Generally unhealthy. So much more so that they cost 6x as much as young people. Which shifts the burden onto young people to pay for older people, because insurance companies can't charge more than 3x more than they do for young people. Works in Candyland.........
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Old 11-25-2012, 04:46 PM   #54
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Default Re: PA College Slashes Instructors' Hours to Avoid Obamacare.

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Originally Posted by Math2
Regulation does not solve all. It eliminates competition, which is the driving factor of any product, unless the government decides that it should be the ones who decide prices.

It's an irrelevant point that companies must report any rate increases above 10%, they'll have reason enough to raise rates....

I am not aware of caps on rate increases, unless you are refering to the justification rule.

Yes, all that you said were positive, but so is everyone living on a 50 acre lot with a four story house. Who's paying for it?

Obamacare would be OK if we were living in Candyland, but it's not practical at all for anyone actually paying for their health care. Do you honestly think that Obamacare won't raise premiums? Really?

Obamacare makes companies offer more benefits, which is great, in Candyland. No warning bells in your head there? Forcing them to cover those with pre-existing conditions, coupled with weak penalties to force people to buy healthcare? Major warning bells yet? Think of it like this: Once health care costs inevitably rise as more preexisting condition cases enter the market, Obamacare imposes weak penalties to force people into the market. However, the penalties aren't as much as a healthcare plan costs, which some people will obviously see and they won't join in the system, leaving more high risk people in the system....Ever hear of the adverse selection death spiral? Well, now you'll get to see it first hand!

Don't forget one of the worst provisions in the law: 3:1 community rating for the old, meant to appease AARP. Young people are generally healthier than older people. I think you agree with that. Now think about old people. Generally unhealthy. So much more so that they cost 6x as much as young people. Which shifts the burden onto young people to pay for older people, because insurance companies can't charge more than 3x more than they do for young people. Works in Candyland.........

So your reply to facts is "Candyland" and supposition?

Who do you think pays for old people now? Working age people. That will never change.

High risk people? You pay for them now in spiraling premiums due to the amount that providers have to pay to provide coverage to the uninsured.

And I've never said it wouldn't raise premiums. I've simply addressed your ridiculous assertion that health care costs will go up more than ever before because of the law.

Last edited by JMT : 11-25-2012 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:02 PM   #55
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Default Re: PA College Slashes Instructors' Hours to Avoid Obamacare.

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Originally Posted by JMT
So your reply to facts is "Candyland" and supposition?

Who do you think pays for old people now? Working age people. That will never change.

High risk people? You pay for them now in spiraling premiums due to the amount that providers have to pay to provide coverage to the uninsured.

And I've never said it wouldn't raise premiums. I've simply addressed your ridiculous assertion that health care costs will go up more than ever before because of the law.

You're in over your head. I spend every single day as an advocate for people with a select group of orphan diseases who require life long therapy that ranges into the tens of thousands monthly. My time is spent dealing directly with real world cases, not "Candyland" doomsday scenarios. Private insurance, government funded programs, people denied due to pre-existing conditions, people facing financial ruin due to inefficient or inadequate health care. All on a daily basis.

Throw out all the catch phrases you want. You don't understand the far reaching implications of the law and instead want to hang your hat on the invisible loopholes you're so certain exist in your "Candyland".

Fine, if you are an expert on health care, then educate me. Who pays for the uninsured then?

All of the provisions I mentioned set up the situation that will drastically raise rates. What invisible loopholes did I mention?

Candyland is the place Obama is taking us in this bill by introducing even more unsustainable regulations that hurt everyone. Sounds nice to people who don't care about the impacts.

What invisible loopholes? Why the post edit?
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Old 11-25-2012, 09:13 PM   #56
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Default Re: PA College Slashes Instructors' Hours to Avoid Obamacare.

It's funny when organizations do stuff like this.

They're usually sh!tty places to work begin with, and they only continue to guarantee their sh!ttiness by repelling high-quality talent through terrible HR practices. The owner won't understand (bcs they're sh!tty) why they can't attract high quality talent, and will ultimately blame Obama for their failure.

Circle of Life.

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Old 11-25-2012, 09:41 PM   #57
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Default Re: PA College Slashes Instructors' Hours to Avoid Obamacare.

Why do leftists act surprised/angry when business changes its behavior in response to government action?

When the government acts against the private sector, there will be an equal reaction. You can sit and call the people greedy/heartless, or you can stand up and face reality. You wanted even more government involvement in health care..you got it. It will not be pretty. This is only the beginning of the many problems this law will cause.
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