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Old 11-29-2012, 03:04 AM   #31
Money 23
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Default Re: Who is "YOUR" Joker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelEyes
Ledger was the best Joker and in my opinion the way the character should be portrayed. Jack did a good job but the character was too cartoonish and didn't have the semi realistic qualities of a real life villain when portrayed by Ledger. I prefer Ledger's performance and I prefer the newer movies.
Agreed, good post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
I really don't like comparing Jack and Heath's performances to be honest. I think they did about as good a job as you can do in the films they appeared in and how their character was written. If you want to say that Heath literally 'inhabited' the character and that gives him the nod, ok. I just think because the roles were played differently, in two different interpretations of Batman, makes their performances very hard to measure.
Concur.

Bottom line is Jack was the right choice for the B89 movie. His name gave the character and movie credibility. Which is why they picked him. Was he too perfect for the role? Maybe. That's why people always say it was just Jack being Jack with makeup ... which makes sense, sometimes that works for actors just heightening their own sense of self.

But when you watch the movie, you're seeing the Hollywood superstar Jack Nicholson, and not THE JOKER. Thus, it's distracting. That's why the Nolan movies took the more appropriate route, and casted great actors who weren't star studded in order to create more immersion from the audience where they just see Batman and the Joker, and not big name actors.

As for performance comparison between Ledger and Nicholson? It isn't even close. Jack had a great time, and treated it semi-seriously and was clearly having a good time and making a MINT w/ his contract from the movie in the process, but Ledger INHABITED the character on a very real and frightening level. He gave the damn guy posture, a style of movement, and even facial and tongue twitches. He put the Joker smack dab in the real world. Who would this psycho be in real life ?!

It isn't even close in terms of caliber of performance. Now, if you want to argue you like the INTERPRETATION of the Joker better in B89, that's another story. I liked it, it was entertaining. He was a slightly nastier version of the goofy and harmless Caesar Romero take on the character.

Nolan's take on the Joker is what I prefer, however. It was terrifying, yet you couldn't take your eyes off.

Ledger's Joker is the character from the comics, with a grittier feel. I think the idea of him not being vein in terms of his look makes more sense with a youthful, grungy rebel who thinks society and their norms are a joke. He's Alex from Clockwork Orange demented son. I like the fact that Nolan's Joker is a hitman and gets his own hands dirty in his operations. The ying and yang of his relationship with the Batman is more accurate as well. There is more of a psychological war going on here between the two. Joker just being a guy who wants to test people's boundaries as motivation makes absolute sense, and creates for a super interesting villain.

Not a fan of the contrived Joker being the killer of the Wayne's plot point, and certainly not a fan of Joker's character motivations in B89 being about trying to win over a girl.

Hammil shouldn't be on this list. He's just a voice actor. Ledger's Joker and performance is one for the ages. Nicholson was entertaining, and fit that vision. But Ledger will go down as being the character. His performance and Nolan's take on the character gets the nod. Hands down.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:14 AM   #32
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Default Re: Who is "YOUR" Joker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Money 23
Concur.

Bottom line is Jack was the right choice for the B89 movie. His name gave the character and movie credibility. Which is why they picked him. Was he too perfect for the role? Maybe. That's why people always say it was just Jack being Jack with makeup ... which makes sense, sometimes that works for actors just heightening their own sense of self.

But when you watch the movie, you're seeing the Hollywood superstar Jack Nicholson, and not THE JOKER. Thus, it's distracting.

..............




Ledger's Joker is the character from the comics, with a grittier feel. I think the idea of him not being vein in terms of his look makes more sense with a youthful, grungy rebel who thinks society and their norms are a joke.


The thing with the 'Jack in Joker makeup' for me, Batman 89 was actually the first time I ever saw Nicholson in a movie. That sentiment resonates now in retrospect because I've of course seen Jack in several movies since. At the time of watching the film though( saw it as a 12 year old in the theatre), it was a guy playing the Joker. I had no frame of reference otherwise at that point.

I agree that Heath's Joker( taking just his performance out of the equation and focusing on how he was written) was FAR more complex and intelligently written than Jack's. As you said the motivations of each characters was on a completely different scale, Jack's Joker was fixated on smaller issues like running a crime syndicate and chasing a girl. Fairly linear and straight-forward concepts. Heath's character was written really as a man who was challenging life's status quo and wasn't motivated by 'simple' pleasures like money( hence his burning of the money stack). At that point, if it wasn't obvious already, you're thinking ok this guy is sick. I mean really, sick.

But he made you think, which is what makes the character resonate so strongly: consider his conversation with Dent in the hospital and the interrogation scene. You're supposed to be rooting against this guy but if you're being honest with yourself, alot of what he was saying makes perfect sense and you're fighting internally not to see his way of thinking. I'm not afraid to say I agreed with much of his philosophy. He was as uncompromising is his values as Batman was in his, which is what makes Heath's Joker such a great character and a legitimate threat to Batman and society on a larger scale.

Last edited by Dragonyeuw : 11-29-2012 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:09 PM   #33
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Default Re: Who is "YOUR" Joker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
The thing with the 'Jack in Joker makeup' for me, Batman 89 was actually the first time I ever saw Nicholson in a movie. That sentiment resonates now in retrospect because I've of course seen Jack in several movies since. At the time of watching the film though( saw it as a 12 year old in the theatre), it was a guy playing the Joker. I had no frame of reference otherwise at that point.
Totally agree. I mean for me it was similar. I was 4 when the movie came out, first movie I saw in a theater, too. But after you see Jack in subsequent movies ... it's like, he's that character a lot of the time. Which is why I prefer him in the Departed. That fits his character.

I see the Joker as more of a youthful, anarchist. I'm more of a fan of the idea of the Joker being his own breed of criminal, and not a mob enforcer with the dial turned up. It resonates better with the whole idea of freaks v.s. the classic criminal in Gotham after the rise and inspiration of Batman.

It makes Batman more apart of the Joker's creation in a negative way, thus the internal dilemma for Bruce of having created this symbol of fear (criminals) and hope for the citizens of Gotham.

The whole "this city deserves a better class of criminal, an I'm gonna give it to them" ... "It's not about money, it's about sending a message. Everything burns." I like the idea of the Joker manipulating the mob to use their resources to take over the city, but he ultimately wants to wipe out standard crime in Gotham. And it's funny, Batman cripples the mob by TDK, the Joker is ultimately the one who murks them when he takes control of their finances, Lau and man power. Creating a criminal vacuum in Gotham.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
Heath's character was written really as a man who was challenging life's status quo and wasn't motivated by 'simple' pleasures like money( hence his burning of the money stack). At that point, if it wasn't obvious already, you're thinking ok this guy is sick. I mean really, sick.
Yup, great post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
But he made you think, which is what makes the character resonate so strongly: consider his conversation with Dent in the hospital and the interrogation scene. You're supposed to be rooting against this guy but if you're being honest with yourself, alot of what he was saying makes perfect sense and you're fighting internally not to see his way of thinking. I'm not afraid to say I agreed with much of his philosophy. He was as uncompromising is his values as Batman was in his, which is what makes Heath's Joker such a great character and a legitimate threat to Batman and society on a larger scale.
Some of what he says is true. Which is what makes him such a great liar. The partial truths. TDK writes the character so well. He's essentially the devil. No origin, just seemingly rises from the streets of Gotham. No past criminal history. Just an organic response to the Batman.

What he says is true in some cases, he's manipulating EVERYONE in the movie to see if they break psychologically, and can be molded to be as disgusting as he is inside. The whole film asks the audience what would you do when faced with a similar position thrusted in front of you by a man making you test your limits. Will you remain altruistic and heroic? Or take the easy way out and kill? Thus the "killing Coleman Reese" scene, and the Ferry finale.

The Joker doesn't want to kill people, he's good at that don't get me wrong, but he ultimately wants to twist people to his way of thinking, the same way Batman wants to inspire people to reclaim their city.

The whole movie he lies. When he introduces himself to the mob, he presents himself as a sane contract killer looking to make a living by taking out the thorn in crime's side in Gotham

"You're crazy"
"No ... I'm ... notttt"

"How much you want?"
"Half"

He's appealing to them as a manipulation in order to take control of their resources, ultimately run them out of town. The Joker isn't interested in money, but he acts like he does in order to take control of the mob. He doesn't want to aimlessly kill everyone in Gotham, but to make them mentally twisted ... and make Gotham his personal playground.

That's why he doesn't want to kill Batman, either. It's all such a more fascinating character than the one in B89. The Joker's motivations come straight out of one of the best graphic novels of all-time, The Killing Joke.

And he succeeds in corrupting Gotham's White Knight. The character is down right demonic in its presentation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
was as uncompromising is his values as Batman was in his, which is what makes Heath's Joker such a great character and a legitimate threat to Batman and society on a larger scale.
Yup. This isn't some parade trying to kill people. He's trying to infiltrate society's minds and corrupt them.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:13 PM   #34
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Default Re: Who is "YOUR" Joker?

Heath Ledger.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:00 PM   #35
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Default Re: Who is "YOUR" Joker?

Some riveting discussion here regarding Nolan's Joker.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:24 PM   #36
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Default Re: Who is "YOUR" Joker?

Jack has the goofiness that gives the Joker his namesake. I watched 89 Batman and saw influence of older comic stories like Laughing Fish which is the Joker at his goofiest. Ledger has the craziness that makes the Joker so damn scary.

Ledger's Joker did have some of the goofiness, like the pencil trick for instance. But Jack's Joker was good in portraying the clown side of him.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:56 PM   #37
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Default Re: Who is "YOUR" Joker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPiston
Ledger's Joker did have some of the goofiness, like the pencil trick for instance. But Jack's Joker was good in portraying the clown side of him.
That isn't fair to Ledger's Joker. He had tons of dark humor.

"No, no ... I kill the bus drive."
"How 'bout a magic trick?"
"Pretty soon little Gambol won't be able to get a nickel for his grandma"
"The Batman will find him and make him squeal ... I know the squealers when I see them"

Then during the extraction Lau is squealing as the Batman takes his goons out, and drags him by the leg.

"You think you can steal from us and just walk away?"
"Yea" 0_0

Will the REAL Batman please stand up? on a Joker card placed on fake Batman's corpse (hilarious Em reference)

"Scuse me I wanna drive ... I like this job I like it"

"I just want my phone call"
Removes wig "Hiiiii"

And he had a ton of physical humor thru mannerisms.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:49 AM   #38
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Default Re: Who is "YOUR" Joker?

Money 23
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:06 PM   #39
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Default Re: Who is "YOUR" Joker?

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Old 12-01-2012, 06:34 AM   #40
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Default Re: Who is "YOUR" Joker?

for all u ledger fans must watch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MQQA2yIXgA
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:35 AM   #41
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Default Re: Who is "YOUR" Joker?

Mark Hamill
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:19 PM   #42
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Default Re: Who is "YOUR" Joker?

Like others have said, Mark Hamill is the voice of The Joker to me. He's been my Joker since I was a child and still has the best performances as The Joker hands down. He's the perfect balance of campy and dangerous.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:32 PM   #43
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Default Re: Who is "YOUR" Joker?

Money23 I meant to ask you earlier, what's your top 10 superhero films? Am I right in assuming you have the Dark Knight at the top?
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:04 PM   #44
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Default Re: Who is "YOUR" Joker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
Money23 I meant to ask you earlier, what's your top 10 superhero films? Am I right in assuming you have the Dark Knight at the top?
I can do a list with Nolan's TDK trilogy or w/o TDK trilogy.

TDK and RISES, even though they use comic book characters, themes and plots ... they aren't totally confined to the "superhero film" genre and it's cliches. TDK is a crime drama, and RISES is a disaster / war film.

For mainstream comic book characters, in cinematic adaptations. No graphic novel films like Watchmen, 300, V for Vendetta?

With Nolan's Trilogy, Top Ten:

1) The Dark Knight
2) TDKR
3) Batman Begins
4) Iron Man
5) Blade
6) Batman 1989
7) Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
8) Superman: TM
9) Ang Lee's HULK
10) The Shadow

Without Nolan's Trilogy:

1) Iron Man
2) Blade
3) Batman 1989
4) Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
5) Superman: TM
6) Ang Lee's HULK
7) The Shadow
8) Dick Tracy
9) Rocketeer
10) Hellboy
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:12 PM   #45
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Default Re: Who is "YOUR" Joker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Money 23
I can do a list with Nolan's TDK trilogy or w/o TDK trilogy.

TDK and RISES, even though they use comic book characters, themes and plots ... they aren't totally confined to the "superhero film" genre and it's cliches. TDK is a crime drama, and RISES is a disaster / war film.

For mainstream comic book characters, in cinematic adaptations. No graphic novel films like Watchmen, 300, V for Vendetta?

With Nolan's Trilogy, Top Ten:

1) The Dark Knight
2) TDKR
3) Batman Begins
4) Iron Man
5) Blade
6) Batman 1989
7) Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
8) Superman: TM
9) Ang Lee's HULK
10) The Shadow

Without Nolan's Trilogy:

1) Iron Man
2) Blade
3) Batman 1989
4) Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
5) Superman: TM
6) Ang Lee's HULK
7) The Shadow
8) Dick Tracy
9) Rocketeer
10) Hellboy

No Spiderman or X-Men flicks? I'm surprised.

Solid list though. Iron Man (the first one) was my favorite non-batman comic book film.
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