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Old 12-01-2012, 04:37 AM   #16
fpliii
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Default Re: In your opinion, how important are offense/defense/rebounding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graviton
Rebounding and defense is slightly overrated. As Rose-less Bulls showed, in the playoffs you need offensive power along with defense to win. Rebounding and defense alone won't get you anywhere even against an inferior team.

Defense wins championships, but without stars to create your offense and break through other good defenses, you won't go far.

Sounds good...so you'd go with a 5O 3D 2R breakdown like Sarcastic/CaStill?
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Old 12-01-2012, 04:42 AM   #17
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Default Re: In your opinion, how important are offense/defense/rebounding?

Defensive rebounding is overrated, and should be considered standard. A defensive player should EXPECT to get every defensive rebound by blocking out his opponent. Obviously there are long rebounds that can't be helped.


Offensive rebounding can win you games. As I stated before, the defensive rebound should be considered the standard, and the offensive rebound the exception. Every offensive rebound is an extra possession.



I think a more effective way to rate players in regards to rebounds, is to count how many offensive rebounds they get compared to how many offensive rebounds they give up.

Last edited by bdreason : 12-01-2012 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 12-01-2012, 04:58 AM   #18
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Default Re: In your opinion, how important are offense/defense/rebounding?

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Originally Posted by bdreason
I think a more effective way to rate players in regards to rebounds, is to count how many offensive rebounds they get compared to how many offensive rebounds they give up.

On top of that I wouldn't mind a stat for defensive rebounds if they are contested or not, cause when a guy gets like 10 rebounds and 8-9 are completely uncontested does that really mean that much?
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Old 12-01-2012, 04:42 PM   #19
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Default Re: In your opinion, how important are offense/defense/rebounding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graviton
Rebounding and defense is slightly overrated. As Rose-less Bulls showed, in the playoffs you need offensive power along with defense to win. Rebounding and defense alone won't get you anywhere even against an inferior team.

Defense wins championships, but without stars to create your offense and break through other good defenses, you won't go far.
It wasnt as if the Sixers were some kind of offensive juggernaut or even good offensively. They won based on defense as well. Not to mention Noah was hurt.
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Old 12-01-2012, 05:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: In your opinion, how important are offense/defense/rebounding?

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Originally Posted by DatAsh
Hmm, kind of stabbing in the dark

For teams
3 offense 5 defense 2 rebounding

For Bigs
2 offense 5 defense 3 rebounding

For Smalls
7 offense 2 defense 1 rebounding

I agree with this model. I probably would only tweak the numbers slightly.
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Old 12-01-2012, 05:52 PM   #21
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Default Re: In your opinion, how important are offense/defense/rebounding?

You left out play making. I wouldn't call Jordan or Kobe real play makers. Their play making comes by doubles. A Scottie Pippen or Lebron actually has the know how to play make for his teammates better then they ever did. Offense can be taken in so many ways. It isn't just scoring, it's setting up players, setting points etc, defense is it's whole thing, and rebounding kind of becomes it's whole little niche for most players as the "great" players are never going to put up superior rebound numbers.
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Old 12-01-2012, 07:43 PM   #22
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Default Re: In your opinion, how important are offense/defense/rebounding?

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Originally Posted by fpliii
Right...I've heard the same about comparisons and his battles (with Malone and Walton as well). Was it expected purely because of his size/pedigree?
That's where it stems from in my opinion. I think people at the time somewhat took Wilt and Russell's rebounding ability for granted. Now, while I say that, I don't mean that people at the time didn't appreciate their rebounding, or that they didn't see the immense value in it; I'm speaking more along the lines of them not fully understanding where it came from. Wilt and Russell certainly grabbed a great deal rebounds as a direct result of their size and athleticism, but even still, it was more about talent and mindset than it was size or athleticism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpliii
He didn't really position himself well for rebounds (rarely do I see him inside the paint on offense, though I haven't really looked closely at his positioning for defensive boards) from what I've seen, but I'm not sure what the exact reasoning was (I need to watch more tape).

Your thinking is similar to mine. In comparison with Wilt and Russell, Kareem lacked positional IQ/awareness, timing(when to jump), and most importantly the mindset.
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Old 12-02-2012, 01:30 AM   #23
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Default Re: In your opinion, how important are offense/defense/rebounding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke117
You left out play making. I wouldn't call Jordan or Kobe real play makers. Their play making comes by doubles. A Scottie Pippen or Lebron actually has the know how to play make for his teammates better then they ever did. Offense can be taken in so many ways. It isn't just scoring, it's setting up players, setting points etc, defense is it's whole thing, and rebounding kind of becomes it's whole little niche for most players as the "great" players are never going to put up superior rebound numbers.

Right, but I don't necessarily think offense = scoring so it's not like we disagree. The way I figure there are three possibilities during the course of play:

(a) team 1 has ball, team 2 doesn't
(b) team 2 has ball, team 1 doesn't
(c) neither team has the ball

and if we're team 1, then IMO anything that falls under (a) constitutes offense, (b) is defense, and (c) is (usually) rebounding (could also be a jump ball, loose ball off turnover). If you want to weight playmaking significantly (not that I agree/disagree BTW, I think your train of thought is fine), then just assign more of your 10 points to offense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
That's where it stems from in my opinion. I think people at the time somewhat took Wilt and Russell's rebounding ability for granted. Now, while I say that, I don't mean that people at the time didn't appreciate their rebounding, or that they didn't see the immense value in it; I'm speaking more along the lines of them not fully understanding where it came from. Wilt and Russell certainly grabbed a great deal rebounds as a direct result of their size and athleticism, but even still, it was more about talent and mindset than it was size or athleticism.



Your thinking is similar to mine. In comparison with Wilt and Russell, Kareem lacked positional IQ/awareness, timing(when to jump), and most importantly the mindset.

Thanks for the insight.
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:00 AM   #24
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Default Re: In your opinion, how important are offense/defense/rebounding?

For an individual player, it's:

5 offense
3 defense
2 rebounding (and maybe 1 for guards...and maybe 3 for centers)

You as an offense chooses where to go with the ball. So a super-star level offensive player can change his team's offense drastically. The same isn't really true for defense, except for centers.
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:06 AM   #25
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Default Re: In your opinion, how important are offense/defense/rebounding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcastic
5 - offense
3- rebounding
2- defense


If you can score and rebound, the defense will take care of itself. Not giving a team second chances will take care of the defense for you.

Melo agenda . My personal take on basketball is that there are 4 main areas.

Defense
Scoring
Passing
Rebounding

In terms of order of importance I think it's

1. Defense
2. Rebounding
3. Scoring
4. Passing


Reason being that defense and rebounding (hustle, fundamentals) are things you can ALWAYS count on and stick to to get big results. Scoring and passing successfully comes and goes. Which is why most elite teams have the philosophy of play defense FIRST and let the rest sort itself out. Good offense doesn't create defense but good defense DOES create offense.
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:07 AM   #26
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Default Re: In your opinion, how important are offense/defense/rebounding?

"Offense Defense Rebounds or Assists non of these matter in the grand scheme of things. What really matters is that you get plenty of rest"

Greg Popovich
2012
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Old 12-02-2012, 06:17 AM   #27
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Default Re: In your opinion, how important are offense/defense/rebounding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmacattack33
For an individual player, it's:

5 offense
3 defense
2 rebounding (and maybe 1 for guards...and maybe 3 for centers)

You as an offense chooses where to go with the ball. So a super-star level offensive player can change his team's offense drastically. The same isn't really true for defense, except for centers.

interesting points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
Melo agenda . My personal take on basketball is that there are 4 main areas.

Defense
Scoring
Passing
Rebounding

In terms of order of importance I think it's

1. Defense
2. Rebounding
3. Scoring
4. Passing


Reason being that defense and rebounding (hustle, fundamentals) are things you can ALWAYS count on and stick to to get big results. Scoring and passing successfully comes and goes. Which is why most elite teams have the philosophy of play defense FIRST and let the rest sort itself out. Good offense doesn't create defense but good defense DOES create offense.

another solid interpretation

Quote:
Originally Posted by daily
"Offense Defense Rebounds or Assists non of these matter in the grand scheme of things. What really matters is that you get plenty of rest"

Greg Popovich
2012



EDIT: 1 post short of 1500, almost time to change my avatar...I need to figure out who'll go best with a Santa cap
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Old 12-02-2012, 06:51 AM   #28
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Default Re: In your opinion, how important are offense/defense/rebounding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daily
"Offense Defense Rebounds or Assists non of these matter in the grand scheme of things. What really matters is that you get plenty of rest"

Greg Popovich
2012

I literally almost spit my drink out

back on topic, for and entire team I'll give defense and offense 4's, and 2 in rebounding.
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Old 12-02-2012, 07:00 AM   #29
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Default Re: In your opinion, how important are offense/defense/rebounding?

offense - 6
defense -2
rebounding-2

ideally you would also want great defense and rebounding. But if you have to pick one I would take great offense. Great offense beats great defense. Of course teams with great defense sometimes also have great offense and that is a scary combo. The dynasty Spurs were lethal offensively with Duncan, Parker and Manu. And also one of the best defenses in the past decade. But if you took away their offensive players they wouldn't be left with much.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:45 PM   #30
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Default Re: In your opinion, how important are offense/defense/rebounding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HorryIsMyMVP
offense - 6
defense -2
rebounding-2

ideally you would also want great defense and rebounding. But if you have to pick one I would take great offense. Great offense beats great defense. Of course teams with great defense sometimes also have great offense and that is a scary combo. The dynasty Spurs were lethal offensively with Duncan, Parker and Manu. And also one of the best defenses in the past decade. But if you took away their offensive players they wouldn't be left with much.

Um what? The borderline dynasty Spurs had their identity in their elite, all time great defense. In fact every year of their titles their defense was better and more important than their offense. That's why there is so much talk now that they have become an offense first team and it's not paid off.
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