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Old 12-05-2012, 12:41 PM   #16
longhornfan1234
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Blue Dog Democrat here, but I side with Republicans on fiscal issues.

HIstorically every time you've increased taxes, you decrease job creation and raise unemployment. Clinton when he was in office raised income tax but lowered capital gains tax. Lowering capital gains tax during the clinton years allowed for a lot of investment to be made which generated jobs offsetting the job losses the tax increase engendered. Obama on the other hand wants to raise taxes on the job creators as well as raise taxes on captial gains. Most economists estimate you'll be looking at an unemployment rate fo 8.5% to 9.0% if he gets what he wants. These regressive taxes will most likely push the country into a recession.

The big problem is Obama's position is not rational, well thought out, it's ideological. The house has already offerred him 800 billion dollars in additional tax revenue...and because it wasn't a income tax on the wealthy he turned it down. He's not serious about resolving any debt issues.
You as a democrat, do you seriously support giving Obama the ability to raise the debt ceiling on his authority. This is a real serious question. If you don't then somewhere along the line you have your own fears about how he conducts fiscal policy, no?
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:16 PM   #17
rufuspaul
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoooter
The rich people are the ones paying the Republicans.


News Flash: They're paying the Democrats too. Shhhh! Don't tell anyone.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:28 PM   #18
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Quote:
Originally Posted by longhornfan1234
HIstorically every time you've increased taxes, you decrease job creation and raise unemployment.
Well, that's just a lie.

Remember when Bush lowered taxes? What happened after that? Was it the biggest recession in 30 years? Was it?
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:38 PM   #19
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:11 PM   #20
longhornfan1234
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Nm.

Last edited by longhornfan1234 : 12-05-2012 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:33 PM   #21
LamarOdom
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinNYC
Marginal tax rates mean we all pay the same rates for the lower amounts of income. If I earn 125,000 dollars and you earn 1 million dollars, the tax we pay on that first 125,000 is the same.

This is why moving into a new tax bracket is usually not an issue. Lots of folks including some rich folks don't know this.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but this is the way it is right?

The first 125 000 everyone pays 1% but the those making more have to tax every cent earned over 125 000 with 2%?

The percentages are of course just as an example.

Last edited by LamarOdom : 12-05-2012 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:44 PM   #22
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Quote:
Originally Posted by rufuspaul
News Flash: They're paying the Democrats too. Shhhh! Don't tell anyone.
To say it's exactly the same on both sides is absurd. That's that false equivalency that the right loves to push.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:48 PM   #23
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Quote:
Originally Posted by LamarOdom
Please correct me if I'm wrong but this is the way it is right?

The first 125 000 everyone pays 1% but the those making more have to tax every cent earned over 125 000 2%?

The percentages are of course just as an example.
I think you have it right, but just to be clear, for a single person it works like this

Single Filing Status

[Tax Rate Schedule X, Internal Revenue Code section 1(c)]
10% on taxable income from $0 to $8,700, plus
15% on taxable income over $8,700 to $35,350, plus
25% on taxable income over $35,350 to $85,650, plus
28% on taxable income over $85,650 to $178,650, plus
33% on taxable income over $178,650 to $388,350, plus
35% on taxable income over $388,350.


So if you earn $400,000 you actually get taxed at 6 different rates. If last year your top rate was 25% and this year it's 35%, you still end up with more take home pay at 35%. That's the part most people don't understand.

There was a front page article in the NY Times recently that quoted a chiropractor who was going to cut back on her business because her income was too close to the next tax rate. She was quoted as
Quote:
she and her husband planned to closely monitor the business income from their joint practice to avoid crossing the income threshold for higher taxes outlined by President Obama on earnings above $200,000 for individuals and $250,000 for couples.

Ms. Collins said she felt torn by being near the cutoff line and disappointed that federal tax policy was providing a disincentive to keep expanding a business she founded in 1998.

"If we're really close and it's near the end-year, maybe we'll just close down for a while and go on vacation," she said.

Other folks pointed out the tremendous mistake she was making.

Quote:
When President Obama says he's going to raise the top marginal tax rate, the key words there are "top" and "marginal." According to the president's plan, every dollar under $250,000 of earned income will enjoy the same tax cut it has today. He's only pledged to raise taxes on income above that level by about 5%. So, if you make $251,000 next year, your tax bill wouldn't go up by $12,000. It would go up by $50. A steak dinner, not a small car.

Basically, Kristina Collins is making a miscalculation that's probably worth tens of thousands of dollars. No wonder she doesn't want to expand her company.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:48 PM   #24
KevinNYC
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffaloBill


lol
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:59 PM   #25
LamarOdom
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinNYC
I think you have it right, but just to be clear, for a single person it works like this

Single Filing Status

[Tax Rate Schedule X, Internal Revenue Code section 1(c)]
10% on taxable income from $0 to $8,700, plus
15% on taxable income over $8,700 to $35,350, plus
25% on taxable income over $35,350 to $85,650, plus
28% on taxable income over $85,650 to $178,650, plus
33% on taxable income over $178,650 to $388,350, plus
35% on taxable income over $388,350.


So if you earn $400,000 you actually get taxed at 6 different rates. If last year your top rate was 25% and this year it's 35%, you still end up with more take home pay at 35%. That's the part most people don't understand.

There was a front page article in the NY Times recently that quoted a chiropractor who was going to cut back on her business because her income was too close to the next tax rate. She was quoted as


Other folks pointed out the tremendous mistake she was making.

Well yes I was aware of this but I do know some people who thinks if the cutting point is at $99 000 then it's better to make $98 999, which is somehow stupid.

And lol at that chiropractor.
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:01 PM   #26
DonDadda59
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Quote:
Originally Posted by longhornfan1234
Blue Dog Democrat here, but I side with Republicans on fiscal issues.

HIstorically every time you've increased taxes, you decrease job creation and raise unemployment.

Nothing but bullshit here
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:16 PM   #27
KevinNYC
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Quote:
Originally Posted by longhornfan1234
Blue Dog Democrat here, but I side with Republicans on fiscal issues.

HIstorically every time you've increased taxes, you decrease job creation and raise unemployment. Clinton when he was in office raised income tax but lowered capital gains tax. Lowering capital gains tax during the clinton years allowed for a lot of investment to be made which generated jobs offsetting the job losses the tax increase engendered. Obama on the other hand wants to raise taxes on the job creators as well as raise taxes on captial gains. Most economists estimate you'll be looking at an unemployment rate fo 8.5% to 9.0% if he gets what he wants. These regressive taxes will most likely push the country into a recession.

The big problem is Obama's position is not rational, well thought out, it's ideological. The house has already offerred him 800 billion dollars in additional tax revenue...and because it wasn't a income tax on the wealthy he turned it down. He's not serious about resolving any debt issues.
You as a democrat, do you seriously support giving Obama the ability to raise the debt ceiling on his authority. This is a real serious question. If you don't then somewhere along the line you have your own fears about how he conducts fiscal policy, no?


Points in bold
There's no evidence for any job losses associated when Clinton raised the top marginal tax rate. There is plenty of evidence otherwise including the fact that when Bush cut the capital gains tax even further what followed was very weak job growth even before the crash of 2008.

You mean progressive taxes.

"Job creators" is a bullshit nonsense term. My brother runs a fairly sizable business, his decision to hire people or not is almost solely based on demand, virtually never on his personal tax rates. When the economy is growing is when he tends to hire. This is really an employment/wages issue and not a tax issue.

This 800 billion the House offered is less than they offered in 2011 before Obama was re-elected. There's also good reason to doubt it will actually raise 800 billion dollars without raising the top marginal rates. Also since it requires the near total elimination of itemized deductions it will hit folks making say 300-400 grand much more proportionally than say Mitt Romney or Warren Buffet because it would eliminate deductions for state and local taxes and mortgages payments.


Yes, I support giving the President the ability to raise the debt ceiling, because the debt ceiling actually doesn't affect spending at all. It just reflects the spending the US government already agreed upon in the budget. That is the debt ceiling mechanism doesn't affect the budget. You may need some language in their about borrowing only to pay for the agreed upon budget. Remember the debt ceiling only became an issue under this president, not the many, many times it was raised under previous presidents. I believe 5 times under Bush.
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:45 PM   #28
Math2
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Quote:
Originally Posted by falc39
There can be many reasons from practical to philosophical.

For instance, some of us don't like the idea of dividing people up into groups according to class, race, religion, or gender. The law should be applied equally to all individuals, not to groups and favoring one over the other. Of course in politics today all you see is division. But American government was designed to protect the individual, not groups or majority, which is why it isn't a democracy. Think of it similar to... "I don't agree with what you are saying, but I will fight for your right to say it."

Others don't like the idea of punishing people who took the risks and hard work to become rich. Sure, being rich makes current life easier, but life wasn't easy when they were working towards their goals and sacrificed where they were to get where they are now, while everyone else and their peers were squandering their opportunities and instead went for short-term gratification. Maybe it was their parents that they inherited wealth from, but at some point down the line, there had to be a point where someone sacrificed a lot to become successful/rich so that there could be an inheritance. You'll find out in life that success is based very rarely on luck, but instead very deliberate, calculated, and has more to do with persistence. Have you heard of the saying "You create your own luck"? You just don't see the process so many people just judge on results. Remember that anything done to punish success right now makes it harder to achieve success for the next generation.

Exactly. That's exactly how I feel.

And not only this, but lower taxes help the economy
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:48 PM   #29
Math2
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Droid101
Well, that's just a lie.

Remember when Bush lowered taxes? What happened after that? Was it the biggest recession in 30 years? Was it?

Yes, 5 years before...
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:49 PM   #30
DonDadda59
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Math2
And not only this, but lower taxes help the economy

Yup, the Bush tax cuts have done wonders for our economy. Show me some empirical data to back up your claim. No bullshit talking points. Show me evidence. I'll wait.
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