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Old 12-10-2012, 11:11 PM   #76
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Default Re: OGT: 12/10 - San Antonio Spurs (17-4) @ Houston Rockets (9-10) - 8pm EST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
The 6th man role for him was always overrated. I don't know what he says about it or what he actually thinks about it, but it's clear that -as a basketball player- he responds better as a starter...at least at this point in his career.

He's the highest paid player on the team and has career lows in all shooting percentages. He's probably grateful, more than anything. Oh, and a recent interview with had him stating that he wants to retire with SA.

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
Now, if he was a 6th man on the Knicks that would be different. He'd adjust to that just fine.

Why would a 6th man role on the Knicks be any different from a 6th man role on the Spurs? Pop first put Ginobili on the bench, years ago when Finley was playing like shit and dragging the bench guys down with him. Spurs starters would accumulate big leads and opposing teams would come back into games as soon as the bench came on. Pop moved Finley to a starting role where he'd get easier shots thanks to Duncan/Parker. Ginobili has since been the energy/glue guy for the bench unit.

Guys like Splitter depend on Ginobili's playmaking, otherwise they're useless and can't really score on their own.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:15 PM   #77
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Default Re: OGT: 12/10 - San Antonio Spurs (17-4) @ Houston Rockets (9-10) - 8pm EST

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCdac
He's had plenty of starts and, more importantly, the Spurs have renewed his contract multiple times. (He's currently making the most money @ 14.1 million). I don't think he minds coming off the bench though, he's done it for years, and he's the ultimate team player. At the same time, he knows he could start at any time. He knows... because they've started him hundreds of games. For instance, in 2010-2011 he started 79 games and the playoffs.



The only reason Ginobili doesn't have more 6MOTY awards is because he was never a full-time 6th man...just as he was never a full-time starter...both reasons why he's only been an all-star twice and made 2 All-NBA Teams.


The 2010-11 season is what I'm talking about. Statistically, it wasn't even a standout year for him. But his impact had him in MVP discussion. Look at how he started the next year. I don't think his 6th man role has ever been defined for any long periods and I also don't think it's ever suited him best.


Why is he a 6th man now? I understand if there was some defensive juggernaut in front of him. But Danny Green? I'd rather Danny Green come off the bench. Ginobili is not just a scorer off the bench. And I think he clearly responds better when he starts. Especially with Parker playing the way he has been lately...Parker is truly one of the best players in the league.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:18 PM   #78
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Default Re: OGT: 12/10 - San Antonio Spurs (17-4) @ Houston Rockets (9-10) - 8pm EST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artillery
He's the highest paid player on the team and has career lows in all shooting percentages. He's probably grateful, more than anything. Oh, and a recent interview with had him stating that he wants to retire with SA.



Why would a 6th man role on the Knicks be any different from a 6th man role on the Spurs? Pop first put Ginobili on the bench, years ago when Finley was playing like shit and dragging the bench guys down with him. Spurs starters would accumulate big leads and opposing teams would come back into games as soon as the bench came on. Pop moved Finley to a starting role where he'd get easier shots thanks to Duncan/Parker. Ginobili has since been the energy/glue guy for the bench unit.

Guys like Splitter depend on Ginobili's playmaking, otherwise they're useless and can't really score on their own.



Of course he wants to retire with San Antonio. I also hate seeing him used that way. He has a great contract, I know that. His stats being down across the board...that's my point. He's not responding well to the role. He'll get it going, regardless. But I think it's clear he's better as a starter.


The Spurs are loaded. Splitter doesn't need to depend on Manu. I'd rather have Diaw off the bench with Neal and Green and Jackson. You have enough playmaking there.



And the difference on the Knicks is that he'd be playing on my team and that's fine with me.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:21 PM   #79
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Default Re: OGT: 12/10 - San Antonio Spurs (17-4) @ Houston Rockets (9-10) - 8pm EST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artillery
He's a good spot-up shooter but I bet he feels frustrated as hell with Pop forcing him to play backup point when he can't even dribble well

He's the starting SG with Danny Green moving to the 3 while Jax and Kawhi are out. But when everyone is healthy Gary usually plays with Manu who is the primary ball handler.

Last edited by Wonder Bread Kid : 12-10-2012 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:23 PM   #80
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Default Re: OGT: 12/10 - San Antonio Spurs (17-4) @ Houston Rockets (9-10) - 8pm EST

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Originally Posted by Whoah10115
Poor Ginobili...I hope he leaves San Antonio this Summer...as odd as it would be.

He wants to retire a Spur. He ain't leaving the silver and black.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:24 PM   #81
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Default Re: OGT: 12/10 - San Antonio Spurs (17-4) @ Houston Rockets (9-10) - 8pm EST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115

Why is he a 6th man now? I understand if there was some defensive juggernaut in front of him. But Danny Green? I'd rather Danny Green come off the bench. Ginobili is not just a scorer off the bench. And I think he clearly responds better when he starts. Especially with Parker playing the way he has been lately...Parker is truly one of the best players in the league.


Ginobili is better off of the bench. He's the Spurs backup PG in a sense. It's important to have either Tony Parker or Ginobili on the floor at all times, that's when the Spurs are at their best. Imagine how ugly it would be having Gary Neal and Danny Green coming off the bench leading the second unit. Gary Neal as the primary ball handler is a nightmare.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:28 PM   #82
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Default Re: OGT: 12/10 - San Antonio Spurs (17-4) @ Houston Rockets (9-10) - 8pm EST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
The only reason Ginobili doesn't have more 6MOTY awards is because he was never a full-time 6th man...just as he was never a full-time starter...both reasons why he's only been an all-star twice and made 2 All-NBA Teams.


The 2010-11 season is what I'm talking about. Statistically, it wasn't even a standout year for him. But his impact had him in MVP discussion. Look at how he started the next year. I don't think his 6th man role has ever been defined for any long periods and I also don't think it's ever suited him best.


Why is he a 6th man now? I understand if there was some defensive juggernaut in front of him. But Danny Green? I'd rather Danny Green come off the bench. Ginobili is not just a scorer off the bench. And I think he clearly responds better when he starts. Especially with Parker playing the way he has been lately...Parker is truly one of the best players in the league.

I don't have the simple stats of his Starts vs. Off the Bench, but I can tell you he thrives either way. He doesn't need more AS games and awards to define him and his success IMO.

None the less, it's a team game.

If I'm not mistaken, the Spurs are first to 18 wins this season?

In the just last 5 seasons they were:

50-16
61-21
50-32
54-28
56-26

Clearly, Pop and the Spurs are doing something right by strategically taking him in and out of the line up.

If the Spurs offense was unbalanced, lacked flow, stagnant, or otherwise defective, I'd see where you're coming from.

But the Spurs - doing what they do - have one of the best run offenses in the league.

Ginobili is 35 years old and has hinted at retirement coming up (I think he plays more basketball, but retires in Argentina).
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:37 PM   #83
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Default Re: OGT: 12/10 - San Antonio Spurs (17-4) @ Houston Rockets (9-10) - 8pm EST

He's definitely not better off the bench. The argument is that this team needs him more off the bench. Well, he's playing like shit now and they're doing fine.


He's a starter and I think that the Spurs would benefit from him starting.


I understand that the Spurs are doing something right. I'd never attempt to suggest they're getting lucky or something. But I think his game is better suited to the starting lineup. I don't think he makes their bench go. This is the best bench they've had and he's not playing as well.


And I don't think he needs all-star births or anything like that. I used that as an example because I think he'd be more recognized as a starter, because I think he'd be too clearly great.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:51 PM   #84
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Default Re: OGT: 12/10 - San Antonio Spurs (17-4) @ Houston Rockets (9-10) - 8pm EST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
I understand that the Spurs are doing something right. I'd never attempt to suggest they're getting lucky or something. But I think his game is better suited to the starting lineup. I don't think he makes their bench go. This is the best bench they've had and he's not playing as well.

Than you haven't been watching the Spurs the last 9 years.

Ginobili has been one of the best playmakers at his position, and has assisted on countless plays with the Spurs' second unit over the years.

I think they just benefit from him playing in general. He's the pitome of a player making a huge impact every minute.

Anyways, did you watch this game tonight? Had a great game, particularly in the 4th. It's not a great example of him having a bad game and/or hurting the Spurs.

I completely agree Manu is a starting caliber player, don't get me wrong. On some teams, different circumstances, I think he would have been a perennial AS in his prime given the minutes/role/expectations/pressure.

He's started 400+ games and started in the 2005 playoffs, which included going up against one of the toughest defensive teams ever in the finals (Pistons).
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:33 AM   #85
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Default Re: OGT: 12/10 - San Antonio Spurs (17-4) @ Houston Rockets (9-10) - 8pm EST

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCdac
Than you haven't been watching the Spurs the last 9 years.

Ginobili has been one of the best playmakers at his position, and has assisted on countless plays with the Spurs' second unit over the years.

I think they just benefit from him playing in general. He's the pitome of a player making a huge impact every minute.

Anyways, did you watch this game tonight? Had a great game, particularly in the 4th. It's not a great example of him having a bad game and/or hurting the Spurs.

I completely agree Manu is a starting caliber player, don't get me wrong. On some teams, different circumstances, I think he would have been a perennial AS in his prime given the minutes/role/expectations/pressure.

He's started 400+ games and started in the 2005 playoffs, which included going up against one of the toughest defensive teams ever in the finals (Pistons).



He wasn't always been on the bench tho. He's started just over half of his career games. I didn't like it when he went to the bench, but I think it's having an effect after he became an out-and-out starter (and best player) in 2010-11.


Their bench has usually been good. They have a better bench now than they've ever had. And so far this season he hasn't been great. I did watch most of the 2nd half tonight, because the game looked good. He was terrific. Easily his best game of the season. But he hasn't been great so far this year.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:06 AM   #86
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Default Re: OGT: 12/10 - San Antonio Spurs (17-4) @ Houston Rockets (9-10) - 8pm EST

Manu's the main playmaker on the bench. Without him the second unit just doesn't score. Him not starting is what allows Pop to play Tony and Tim 30MPG.

You have to understand that for the Spurs the priorities are
1) Health
2) Winning

Manu is hurt, and he's obviously not 100%. In fact I'm worried this might be his last season. He might not be playing very well right now, but historically he's been pretty good using the same strategy, so I don't think that's what's to blame.

Last edited by Nero Tulip : 12-11-2012 at 05:09 AM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:11 AM   #87
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Default Re: OGT: 12/10 - San Antonio Spurs (17-4) @ Houston Rockets (9-10) - 8pm EST

Houston is really talented. They should be playing better than that. I usually don't like blaming coaches but I think they are both terrible...
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:35 AM   #88
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Default Re: OGT: 12/10 - San Antonio Spurs (17-4) @ Houston Rockets (9-10) - 8pm EST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
He's definitely not better off the bench. The argument is that this team needs him more off the bench. Well, he's playing like shit now and they're doing fine.


He's a starter and I think that the Spurs would benefit from him starting.


I understand that the Spurs are doing something right. I'd never attempt to suggest they're getting lucky or something. But I think his game is better suited to the starting lineup. I don't think he makes their bench go. This is the best bench they've had and he's not playing as well.


And I don't think he needs all-star births or anything like that. I used that as an example because I think he'd be more recognized as a starter, because I think he'd be too clearly great.

Manu is the playmaker off the bench and who makes the 2nd unit go. He always plays hard and is an instant bundle of energy/boost. No need to waste that energy/boost starting when Parker dominates the ball so much and TD's out there.

Manu isn't going anywhere. You think he's going to go play for another team/coach after almost 11 years with Duncan, TP, Pop and a great organization like the Spurs. It'd drive him crazy. He's had his big contracts - time to take less so the Spurs can pay Splitter and Neal.

Spurs don't need Manu to play great in the regular season. He's injured a lot and that allows court time for the young 'uns to develop. Manu is a big time, big game player and is needed for the playoffs, not so much the regular season as Spurs are deep and can withstand all his nagging "contusions".
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:05 PM   #89
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Default Re: OGT: 12/10 - San Antonio Spurs (17-4) @ Houston Rockets (9-10) - 8pm EST

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmt
Manu is the playmaker off the bench and who makes the 2nd unit go. He always plays hard and is an instant bundle of energy/boost. No need to waste that energy/boost starting when Parker dominates the ball so much and TD's out there.

Manu isn't going anywhere. You think he's going to go play for another team/coach after almost 11 years with Duncan, TP, Pop and a great organization like the Spurs. It'd drive him crazy. He's had his big contracts - time to take less so the Spurs can pay Splitter and Neal.

Spurs don't need Manu to play great in the regular season. He's injured a lot and that allows court time for the young 'uns to develop. Manu is a big time, big game player and is needed for the playoffs, not so much the regular season as Spurs are deep and can withstand all his nagging "contusions".



I never said that I think he's leaving. I said I wish he would, if he's gonna be used like this. He's actually started more games than he has come off the bench. I didn't like his use off the bench when it became the norm, but maybe it suited the team. Even before that, he'd randomly come off the bench. But whatever. By 10/11 he was the starter and that's probably the best he's ever played, even if he's put up better stats and even played more minutes outside of that season.


Parker doesn't dominate the ball at all for a true PG. It's all about ball movement. Not only would I'd rather have my best player (which I think he is) in the starting lineup, but I would rather maximize. In the playoffs, he'll still be coming off the bench. He's too good to not be effective, but he'd be better in the starting lineup. Disagree if you'd like but this is a fair analysis. The bench doesn't need him either.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:07 PM   #90
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Default Re: OGT: 12/10 - San Antonio Spurs (17-4) @ Houston Rockets (9-10) - 8pm EST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
By 04/05 he was the starter and that's probably the best he's ever played, even if he's put up better stats and even played more minutes outside of that season.

Fixed.

He may have had better seasons as he became seasoned, confident, and Tim Duncan aged.

But when Pop started him in 2005 was when he carved out his place in the league as an AS and champion.
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