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Old 12-16-2012, 06:27 PM   #31
KevinNYC
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Default Re: US gun related murder rates compared to other countries

Quote:
Originally Posted by longhornfan1234
I am not saying the two are related, but it is very interesting that at the same time assault rifles are increasing in popularity the murder rate is declining dramatically.

I think you could form a hypothesis that the rise in popularity of assault rifles has not impacted the murder rate.

I don't think that last sentence was what you mean to say.

Yes, you could form a hypothesis, but it might be a terrible hypothesis. You would get much better luck looking at the demographics of America and how the baby boomers were reaching middle age. You could also look what was happening with street crime with the ending of the first era of crack and you could look at criminal sentencing and how it has changed in the last 20 years. All of those would probably have more of an impact that any of our guns laws.

By the way, you have put your thumb on a classic logical fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:30 PM   #32
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Default Re: US gun related murder rates compared to other countries

Quote:
Originally Posted by longhornfan1234
Source?

The book Freakonomics.

Basically the question was, in NYC the crime rate dropped quickly and the Giuliani team claim it was due to their methods. However, shortly after that it became dropping in cities all over the country, lots of which didn't use the same methods. So what caused it? They concluded you could make a case for less unwanted pregnancies coming to term. I think they said in cities with access to legal abortion early on, the crime rate fell first.

I'm sure there's a ton of stuff on this, if you google it.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:32 PM   #33
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Default Re: US gun related murder rates compared to other countries

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Originally Posted by bmulls
You are seriously retarded dude. Stop responding to my posts or learn reading comprehension. Google the words if you don't understand them.

"If you subtract gang crime related murders the US is right in the middle of the pack."

what was the point of that statement. your saying gangcrime isnt a factor in our society, too discount it in statistics. your the one that needs more comprehension and less hunting wtih your guns.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:37 PM   #34
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Default Re: US gun related murder rates compared to other countries

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Originally Posted by nathanjizzle
"If you subtract gang crime related murders the US is right in the middle of the pack."

what was the point of that statement. your saying gangcrime isnt a factor in our society, too discount it in statistics. your the one that needs more comprehension and less hunting wtih your guns.

I'm saying gang crimes are a huge factor in our society, the single largest factor. If you get rid of gang murders then the US murder rate is close to the rest of the developed world.

You're saying the same thing I'm saying.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:45 PM   #35
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Default Re: US gun related murder rates compared to other countries

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmulls
I'm saying gang crimes are a huge factor in our society, the single largest factor. If you get rid of gang murders then the US murder rate is close to the rest of the developed world.

You're saying the same thing I'm saying.

Gang crimes are a huge factor in the numbers for all the countries whether it is from the mob, cartel, gangs, etc
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:45 PM   #36
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Default Re: US gun related murder rates compared to other countries

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmulls
I'm saying gang crimes are a huge factor in our society, the single largest factor. If you get rid of gang murders then the US murder rate is close to the rest of the developed world.

You're saying the same thing I'm saying.
but wtf? How the hell can you just get rid of gang crimes out of the murder rate? It's PART of the murder rate. How would it be fair to take out gang crimes out of the murder rate THEN compare it with other countries?

If I take other countries, and take out their #1 reason for murder crimes, I'd lower the rate too. So what's the point? The U.S. murder rate is high, including gang crimes, that's all there is to it.

You compare the overall murder rate, not anything else. Other countries murder rate include their own gang crimes too.

Seriously, you provide the WORST arguments.
"People shoudn't drive because cars cause death as well"
"people shouldn't drink because alcohol cause death as well"
"if we take away guns, people will kill with knifes, and the death rate will be the same"
"we should take out gang crimes, then U.S. will be comparable to other countries with their full murder rates"

wtf??
You argue like a middle school kid, seriously.

Last edited by ripthekik : 12-16-2012 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:48 PM   #37
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Default Re: US gun related murder rates compared to other countries

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripthekik
but wtf? How the hell can you just get rid of gang crimes out of the murder rate? It's PART of the murder rate. How would it be fair to take out gang crimes out of the murder rate THEN compare it with other countries?

If I take other countries, and take out their #1 reason for murder crimes, I'd lower the rate too. So what's the point? The U.S. murder rate is high, including gang crimes, that's all there is to it.

You compare the overall murder rate, not anything else. Other countries murder rate include their own gang crimes too.

I'm saying 2 things:

1. The US faces a gang epidemic on a scale that other developed nations can't even fathom. If you're going to leave Mexico off your chart because of it's drug war you also need to take America's gang problem into consideration.

2. Addressing gang violence would do a lot more to prevent gun murder than gun control would because the majority of gang murders are committed with stolen or illegal firearms anyway.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:52 PM   #38
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Default Re: US gun related murder rates compared to other countries

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmulls
I'm saying 2 things:

1. The US faces a gang epidemic on a scale that other developed nations can't even fathom. If you're going to leave Mexico off your chart because of it's drug war you also need to take America's gang problem into consideration.

2. Addressing gang violence would do a lot more to prevent gun murder than gun control would because the majority of gang murders are committed with stolen or illegal firearms anyway.

It could be argued that Mexico's problems are because of America's war on drugs, I don't think the same can be said about America's problems.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:52 PM   #39
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Default Re: US gun related murder rates compared to other countries

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmulls
I'm saying 2 things:

1. The US faces a gang epidemic on a scale that other developed nations can't even fathom. If you're going to leave Mexico off your chart because of it's drug war you also need to take America's gang problem into consideration.

2. Addressing gang violence would do a lot more to prevent gun murder than gun control would because the majority of gang murders are committed with stolen or illegal firearms anyway.
U.S. gang crimes can't even touch Mexico or the countries in Africa. They got 14 year old with guns.

And I've already said, even if you put Mexico there, the U.S. still looks bad. What's left to say then? USA MURDER RATE IS BAD, face it.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:53 PM   #40
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Default Re: US gun related murder rates compared to other countries

Quote:
Originally Posted by longhornfan1234
Source?

Source for a correlation? Well it'd be an inverse correlation since it would be as the number of abortions taking place goes up the amount of violent crime goes down.



It was decided in 1973, and since people who would have been entering their late teens and early 20s around that 93 94 period (the demographic most likely to commit those sorts of crime - by age and socioeconomic level) were less in number, this effectively lowered the overall crime rate (if the relationship is causal, I'm not saying it is - it is only a correlation after all).

Last edited by miller-time : 12-16-2012 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:54 PM   #41
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Default Re: US gun related murder rates compared to other countries

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripthekik
U.S. gang crimes can't even touch Mexico or the countries in Africa. They got 14 year old with guns.

And I've already said, even if you put Mexico there, the U.S. still looks bad. What's left to say then? USA MURDER RATE IS BAD, face it.

I agree it's bad, and I've never said otherwise. We need to get tougher on gang crime and reevaluate the drug laws that fuel it.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:08 PM   #42
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Default Re: US gun related murder rates compared to other countries

Quote:
Originally Posted by miller-time
Source for a correlation? Well it'd be an inverse correlation since it would be as the number of abortions taking place goes up the amount of violent crime goes down.



It was decided in 1973, and since people who would have been entering their late teens and early 20s around that 93 94 period (the demographic most likely to commit those sorts of crime - by age and socioeconomic level) were less in number, this effectively lowered the overall crime rate (if the relationship is causal, I'm not saying it is - it is only a correlation after all).
Depending on your opinion you could argue thats simply a matter of accounting. I wouldn't agree with that argument but playing devils advocate you could argue that abortion is in and of itself a violent crime and as such the rates didn't really change.

My actual question would be what is the actual violent crime and or murder rate compared to these other countries and honestly I don't know the answer to that. If the knife and simple physical violent crime rates are much higher in the other countries then this stat doesn't matter
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:11 PM   #43
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Default Re: US gun related murder rates compared to other countries

Thread and graph is a joke without mentioning Mexico.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:12 PM   #44
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Default Re: US gun related murder rates compared to other countries

japan and south korea lead the world in sword/ninja star related deaths
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:27 PM   #45
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Default Re: US gun related murder rates compared to other countries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chewing
Thread and graph is a joke without mentioning Mexico.

It isn't like they are hiding the fact, they mention they didn't include it. "I did not include Mexico, which has about triple the U.S. rate due in large part to the ongoing drug war."
Also the fact that Mexico is worse than the US doesn't make the US any better.
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