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Old 12-31-2012, 02:39 AM   #46
Yao Ming's Foot
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Default Re: Which is more impressive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KG215
It doesn't bother me. It's 12:30 in the morning, I'm bored, and coupled with your posting history, the premise and agenda of this thread was obvious and I got a kick out of it. You provide me with entertainment because I know you're trolling. Whether it be lifelong message-board mission of disproving the "Jordan Mythologists", or subtly propping-up your favorite player with DRtg and not much else, I get a few cheap laughs out of your posts now; no more being bothered and getting upset by them.

Why is that my context (strength of defense and record of opposing teams) is dismissed as agenda or bias yet your desired context (teammate star power) is valued?

Especially since there is a clear relationship between opposing defensive strength impacting individual playoff stats yet little to no demonstrated impact of star teammates impacting individual playoff stats.

I can only shrug my shoulders at your reasoning.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:43 AM   #47
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Default Re: Which is more impressive?

The latter because he (LeBron) was the defense's main focus.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:48 AM   #48
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Default Re: Which is more impressive?

Yao the answer to your question is obvious. Player b was clearly superior that year
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:55 AM   #49
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Default Re: Which is more impressive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Why is that my context (strength of defense and record of opposing teams) is dismissed as agenda or bias yet your desired context (teammate star power) is valued?

Especially since there is a clear relationship between opposing defensive strength impacting individual playoff stats yet little to no demonstrated impact of star teammates impacting individual playoff stats.

I can only shrug my shoulders at your reasoning.


Where did I say strength of defense and record of opposing teams wasn't valued? But that shouldn't be all the variables that are included in this particular argument. Strength of defenses and opponent's records are important. But so are things like role on the team and who their teammates were.

So I can only shrug my shoulders at only including certain things that fit your agenda and ignoring other things that don't.

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Old 12-31-2012, 03:12 AM   #50
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Default Re: Which is more impressive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KG215


Where did I say strength of defense and record of opposing teams wasn't valued? But that shouldn't be all the variables that are included in this particular argument. Strength of defenses and opponent's records are important. But so are things like role on the team and who their teammates were.

So I can only shrug my shoulders at only including certain things that fit your agenda and ignoring other things that don't.


Role on team and teammates strength for these two players don't result in what you seem to believe. Maybe if I repeat it for a third team you will acknowledge that Lebron's playoff statistics from 08-09 were superior to his individual playoff statistics from 10-11 despite the fact that defenses were forced to pay attention to two other all stars. In the same way Kobe's playoff stats were superior the 4-5 seasons post Shaq than when he played with Shaq in his prime.
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Old 12-31-2012, 03:32 AM   #51
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Default Re: Which is more impressive?

Switch players. I'd say its more feasible that lebron three peats than Kobe leading those cavs to the finals appearance.

That my opinion.

Hey op, throw Iverson's 01 run into the mix
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Old 12-31-2012, 03:42 AM   #52
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Default Re: Which is more impressive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Role on team and teammates strength for these two players don't result in what you seem to believe. Maybe if I repeat it for a third team you will acknowledge that Lebron's playoff statistics from 08-09 were superior to his individual playoff statistics from 10-11 despite the fact that defenses were forced to pay attention to two other all stars. In the same way Kobe's playoff stats were superior the 4-5 seasons post Shaq than when he played with Shaq in his prime.


Ok, if that's the case, then why include the Finals results. Isn't that a team accomplishment? Why not just say each player made the Finals and these are their stats during that playoff run.

Obviously Kobe's numbers weren't as good as they might've been without Shaq. But we also don't know how 21 year old Kobe would've handled the pressure of carrying a bad supporting cast through the playoffs with the defense almost solely focused on stopping him. But we do know how 22 year old LeBron handled that responsibility.

So, if the end result of one winning the championship and the other being swept, I have the right to know who their teammates were and what their role on the team was. Stats from what would be future playoff runs at a more advanced and mature age carry almost zero weight with me when talking about which 21-22 year old was more impressive in their first playoffs run that resulted in a Finals appearance.

And if you're going to tell me things like who their teammates were don't matter, then I'm going to just ignore the results of the Finals and just focus on the fact that both players reached the Finals.

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Old 12-31-2012, 02:09 PM   #53
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Default Re: Which is more impressive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandito
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fukkoutta here nikka, you rush to Bryant's defense in every one of these threads and never pass up a chance to demean LeBron. You're not fooling anybody.
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Old 12-31-2012, 06:41 PM   #54
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Default Re: Which is more impressive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KG215


Ok, if that's the case, then why include the Finals results. Isn't that a team accomplishment? Why not just say each player made the Finals and these are their stats during that playoff run.

Obviously Kobe's numbers weren't as good as they might've been without Shaq. But we also don't know how 21 year old Kobe would've handled the pressure of carrying a bad supporting cast through the playoffs with the defense almost solely focused on stopping him. But we do know how 22 year old LeBron handled that responsibility.

So, if the end result of one winning the championship and the other being swept, I have the right to know who their teammates were and what their role on the team was. Stats from what would be future playoff runs at a more advanced and mature age carry almost zero weight with me when talking about which 21-22 year old was more impressive in their first playoffs run that resulted in a Finals appearance.

And if you're going to tell me things like who their teammates were don't matter, then I'm going to just ignore the results of the Finals and just focus on the fact that both players reached the Finals.


The 2007 Cavs were the 4th best defense in the league. Its hard to give credit to that ranking to Lebron given the fact he proclaimed in later years that he was NOW trying on both side of the ball and didnt earn his first all defensive team award until two seasons later. The value of his supporting cast was mainly their defensive ability.

In terms of this topic I don't personally find it very impressive no matter what his teammates were for Lebron to lead his team past two .500 teams. Nor do I find it particularly impressive to get swept in the Finals. That leaves one series vs the Pistons.

Game 1- 76-79

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...705210DET.html

Cavs defense holds the Pistons offense to 97.9 offensive rating

Lebron's TS% .333
Teams total TS% .407

Highest Cavs GameScore = Illguaskas

Game 2 76-79

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...705240DET.html

Cavs defense holds the Pistons offense to a 94.5 offensive rating

Lebron's TS% .430
Teams total TS% .466

Highest Cavs GameScore = Varejao


Game 3 88-82

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...705270CLE.html

Cavs defense holds the Pistons offense to a 102.0 offensive rating

Lebron's TS% .641
Teams total TS% .577

Highest Cavs GameScore =Lebron


Game 4 91-87

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...705290CLE.html

Cavs defense holds the Pistons offense to a 98.5 offensive rating

Lebron's TS% .544
Teams total TS% .551

Highest Cavs GameScore =Lebron


Game 5

Cavs defense holds the Pistons offense to a 111.6 offensive rating

Lebron's TS% .613
Teams total TS% .550
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...705310DET.html

Highest Cavs GameScore =Lebron

Game 6

Cavs defense holds the Pistons offense to a 92.9 offensive rating

Lebron's TS% .517
Teams total TS% .531

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...706020CLE.html

Highest Cavs GameScore =Boobie Gibson

His teammates took home the player of the game moniker 50% of the time. They also played four games of elite defense and one game of great defense. I'm sure a ton of players would happily take that.

Last edited by Yao Ming's Foot : 12-31-2012 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 12-31-2012, 07:32 PM   #55
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Default Re: Which is more impressive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRR3
*whining like a ugly b1tch*
I don't defend anyone, I talked about any player equally. Compare to people like you and pauk who defend one player I talk about what I think about any player equally. I even defended Lebron when I have to against Kobe trolls. If I am going choose a side I choose the side not with Lebrontards or Kobe trolls...

I do not side with anyone...specially not an annoying troll like you.
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