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Old 11-10-2012, 12:02 AM   #1
DonDadda59
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Default The Fiscal Cliff

The Background:
“Fiscal cliff” is the popular shorthand term used to describe the conundrum that the U.S. government will face at the end of 2012, when the terms of the Budget Control Act of 2011 are scheduled to go into effect.

Among the laws set to change at midnight on December 31, 2012, are the end of last year’s temporary payroll tax cuts (resulting in a 2% tax increase for workers), the end of certain tax breaks for businesses, shifts in the alternative minimum tax that would take a larger bite, the end of the tax cuts from 2001-2003, and the beginning of taxes related to President Obama’s health care law. At the same time, the spending cuts agreed upon as part of the debt ceiling deal of 2011 will begin to go into effect. According to Barron's, over 1,000 government programs - including the defense budget and Medicare are in line for "deep, automatic cuts."
President Obama's Stance:


Washington (CNN) -- Flush with re-election vigor, President Barack Obama called Friday for House Republicans to immediately pass a bill already approved by the Senate that would maintain current tax rates for middle-class Americans while increasing taxes of wealthier citizens.

In his first public comments since winning Tuesday's vote, Obama expressed openness to negotiate with Congress on how to deal with pending tax hikes and spending cuts that create the so-called fiscal cliff facing the economy at the end of the year.

However, he also repeated his longstanding demand that Republican opponents to any kind of tax increase relent to the will of the White House and the Senate -- and now the American people -- in letting tax rates increase on income over $250,000.

Nobody in either party wants the middle class, identified as families making less than $250,000 a year, to see taxes increase at the end of the year when lower rates set during the administration of former President George W. Bush will expire, Obama said.

"That makes no sense. It would be bad for the economy," he told a White House gathering of what aides described as middle class Americans. "Let's extend middle class tax cuts right now. Let's do that right now. That one step would give millions of families, 98% of Americans, 97% of small businesses, the certainty that they need going into the new year."

Noting the Senate previously passed a bill to extend the tax cuts to the middle class, but not income over $250,000, Obama said: "All we need is action from the House."

"I've got the pen," he said, reaching into his pocket to hold one up as the crowd applauded. "I'm ready to sign the bill right away. I'm ready to do it."


http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/09/politi...iff/index.html
House Republican Leader John Boehner:
Boehner: Raising Tax Rates 'Unacceptable'



Raising tax rates is "unacceptable" to House Speaker John Boehner as he prepares to open negotiations on the looming "fiscal cliff" with the president and congressional Democrats, he told "World News" anchor Diane Sawyer today in an exclusive interview.

"Raising tax rates is unacceptable," Boehner, R-Ohio, said in his first broadcast interview since the election Tuesday.

"Frankly, it couldn't even pass the House. I'm not sure it could pass the Senate."

That stance could set up a real showdown with the White House given that the president has said he would veto any deal that does not allow tax cuts for the rich to expire. But the speaker said that Republicans would put new tax revenue on the table as leaders work toward a deal.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/boehn...7#.UJ3QkeQmd_g
The exit polls from the election indicate that 60% of voters agree that taxes should be raised (13% saying for all Americans, 47% saying only for those earning $250K+) as opposed to 35% who say no tax hikes should be imposed. It's clear that the vast majority of Americans are smart enough to realize that we cannot cut the deficit in any effective way without raising taxes (and obviously spending cuts).

The Bush tax cuts are set to expire for everyone in January anyway so Boehner and co. have no legs to stand on. Also, if it turns out a deal isn't reached before the end of the year and we are plunged into another terrible recession for the sole reason that the Republicans in the house didn't want to raise taxes on millionaires and billionaires by a few percentage points will make the past election look like a walk in the park compared to what is coming for that party in Congress.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:47 AM   #2
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

The predicted effects of us falling over the cliff if no deal is reached by the end of the year:

US NEWS report

The Congressional Research Service (CRS), along with the CBO, and anyone who lived through the stagnant economy during the Bush tax cuts era concluded:
Multiple CRS Reports Show Tax Cuts for Rich Will Not Harm Economic Growth

The New York Times recently reported that a Congressional Research Service (CRS) report was "withdrawn from circulation" at the behest of Senate Republicans. The CRS report finds no relationship between upper-income tax rates and economic growth, undercutting Republican claims that an extension of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy is necessary for economic growth. Senate Republicans called the report's validity into question, and CRS eventually withdrew it. However, the report's findings are only the latest in a series that suggest only a tenuous relationship between the economy and upper-income and capital gains tax cuts.

Rest of the Article

The Report
History and facts tells us that the times of highest economic growth coincide with the times of highest top tax rates. For a recent example, just compare the economy under the Clinton era tax rates with the economy under the Bush tax cuts. It's a no brainer, really.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:01 PM   #3
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Barry O lays down the law:
Obama to open talks with $1.6 trillion plan to raise taxes on corporations, wealthy



By Zachary A. Goldfarb and Lori Montgomery, Published: November 13

President Obama is taking a hard line with congressional Republicans heading into negotiations over the year-end “fiscal cliff,” making no opening concessions and calling for far more in new taxes than Republicans have so far been willing to consider.

Obama plans to open talks using his most recent budget proposal, which sought to raise taxes on corporations and the wealthy by $1.6 trillion over the next decade, White House press secretary Jay Carney said Tuesday. That’s double the sum that House Speaker John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) offered Obama during secret debt negotiations in 2011.

Obama has been pressing to let the George W. Bush-era tax cuts expire at the end of the year for the wealthiest 2 percent of the nation’s households, a tax hike adamantly opposed by Republicans. But Carney suggested that even the revenue generated by letting those tax cuts end would not be enough to tame the national debt and reenergize the economy.

Meanwhile, Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner and other senior Democrats on Tuesday said Obama would not be willing to maintain the Bush tax rates in exchange for a cap on deductions for households earning more than $250,000 a year, a leading Republican alternative.

“I don’t see how you do this without higher rates. I don’t think there’s any feasible, realistic way to do it,” Geithner said at a conference in Washington. “When you take a cold, hard look at the amount of resources you can raise from that top 2 percent of Americans through limiting deductions, you will find yourself disappointed relative to the magnitude of the revenue increases that we need.”

Democrats said Obama is likely to maintain a tough stance Friday, when Boehner and other congressional leaders are due to gather at the White House for their first face-to-face discussions about how to avoid the fiscal cliff. Fresh off a resounding electoral victory in which they kept the White House and picked up seats in the House and Senate, Democrats said there is no reason to compromise now on a central plank of the president’s platform.

“It was an intrinsic part of his campaign, and the public supports it. So what more do you want?” said Rep. Sander M. Levin (D-Mich.), the senior Democrat on the tax-writing House Ways and Means Committee.

...

Obama’s 2013 budget sought to reduce borrowing over the next 10 years by about $4 trillion, counting $1.1 trillion in agency cuts already in force. In addition to raising taxes, Obama proposed to slice $340 billion from health-care programs and to count about $1 trillion in savings from ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

His budget request did not include reductions to health and retirement benefits, but Obama did consider such changes in his 2011 talks with Boehner, including raising the Medicare eligibility age from 65 to 67 and applying a stingier measure of inflation to Social Security.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...02a_story.html
So there you have it, the President proposes to raise $1.6 trillion through taxing 2% of the country while maintaining tax breaks for 98% of the population, cutting borrowing by $4 trillion, cutting certain entitlements by hundreds of billions, and saving $1 trillion by ending our military engagements in the Middle East.

Sounds like a plan to me

Obama's first press conference after the election is coming up in a few minutes.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:03 PM   #4
Droid101
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Barry isn't holding back.

Either they cave and leave taxes on the middle class/poor the same and raise them for the rich and impose new ones on millionaires, or taxes for EVERYONE go up when the Bush cuts expire.

Your move, House.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:10 PM   #5
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Droid101
Barry isn't holding back.

Either they cave and leave taxes on the middle class/poor the same and raise them for the rich and impose new ones on millionaires, or taxes for EVERYONE go up when the Bush cuts expire.

Your move, House.

Exactly, Grover Norquist and his minions have already been check-mated. It's either raise the taxes on 2% of Americans to levels similar to what they were when our economy was strong (which is what the vast majority of Americans agree with, 60-35) or let taxes go up on 100% of the population, drastic spending cuts to occur, unemployment to skyrocket, and a new recession to kick in.

How is Boehner (Norquist) going to explain to the American people that the reason they are losing jobs in droves and we are plunged into another deep recession is only because they don't want to raise income taxes on 2% of the population by a handful of percentage points? It's either get with the program or pay for it come election time.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:11 PM   #6
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

More blame for GOP if a deal isn't reached...

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...iff/?hpt=hp_t2


i knew they would impede and fight Obama's actions to address the fiscal cliff like they have everything else until they get their way. i'm glad public sentiment is against them and putting blame on the House GOP if a deal doesn't get done, puts most of the pressure on them to give in, otherwise i don't think they would since they're so anti Obama stubborn.

its so annoying how they already lost the popular vote on raising taxes for the rich, and still able to fight it thru the House.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:17 PM   #7
rufuspaul
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Those fukcing rich people. Gotta hate them. Shame on them for making all that money and not giving us any of it.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:23 PM   #8
DonDadda59
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by rufuspaul
Those fukcing rich people. Gotta hate them. Shame on them for making all that money and not giving us any of it.

Tar and feather them! You didn't see the last Batman movie? There's a storm coming, Mr. Paul

But seriously though, has nothing to do with hate, shame, etc. Like I said, look at the top tax rates in this country for the past say 70 years, then check how they correlate with the GDP and other factors of economic health.

Watch Republican Ben Stein explain it to one of the innumerable blond ditzes on Fox News:

It's basic common sense
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:24 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by rufuspaul
Those fukcing rich people. Gotta hate them. Shame on them for making all that money and not giving us any of it.


This old canard? Taxes are lower for rich people than any time in our history. Give us one good reason why their rates can't go back to Clinton levels (the same time we had our last economic boon). Go on, one reason.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:26 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDadda59
Exactly, Grover Norquist and his minions have already been check-mated. It's either raise the taxes on 2% of Americans to levels similar to what they were when our economy was strong (which is what the vast majority of Americans agree with, 60-35) or let taxes go up on 100% of the population, drastic spending cuts to occur, unemployment to skyrocket, and a new recession to kick in.

How is Boehner (Norquist) going to explain to the American people that the reason they are losing jobs in droves and we are plunged into another deep recession is only because they don't want to raise income taxes on 2% of the population by a handful of percentage points? It's either get with the program or pay for it come election time.
Let him go wild I say to my fellow Republicans, The country will learn the hard way that socialism does not work. Once Obama gets his tax hikes HE WILL OWN THIS ECONOMY, I don't want to hear Bush's name ever again from a liberal stating this was his fault. This is Obama's economy from now on.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:30 PM   #11
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by General
Let him go wild I say to my fellow Republicans, The country will learn the hard way that socialism does not work. Once Obama gets his tax hikes HE WILL OWN THIS ECONOMY, I don't want to hear Bush's name ever again from a liberal stating this was his fault. This is Obama's economy from now on.

So if I'm hearing you correctly, whatever happens from the point of Obama getting the concessions from Congress on, is on him?

I'll bookmark this so in 4 years when (as the CBO, Moody's Analytical, and other organizations) the country has added a record 12-12.3 million jobs, there is a housing boom, the dysfunctional healthcare system is fixed, the GDP has doubled, etc... you can eat a nice helping off hot off the stove crow
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:34 PM   #12
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by General
Let him go wild I say to my fellow Republicans, The country will learn the hard way that socialism does not work. Once Obama gets his tax hikes HE WILL OWN THIS ECONOMY, I don't want to hear Bush's name ever again from a liberal stating this was his fault. This is Obama's economy from now on.

it sure is and its been recovering quite well ever since just prior to the debates. the fiscal cliff is the one big obstacle we have to get thru, hopefully the Republicans won't keep trying to leverage our country's well being for their party agendas. i mean you lost, about time you back down to what the country voted for...
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:37 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by rufuspaul
Those fukcing rich people. Gotta hate them. Shame on them for making all that money and not giving us any of it.


woe is rich people :

taxing rich people is a whole lot better than screwing over old people who rely on SS to live...by the same guilt trip you must hate poor people. gotta hate them. shame on them for making a lot less money because they're all supposedly lazy
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:45 PM   #14
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzuki
it sure is and its been recovering quite well ever since just prior to the debates. the fiscal cliff is the one big obstacle we have to get thru, hopefully the Republicans won't keep trying to leverage our country's well being for their party agendas. i mean you lost, about time you back down to what the country voted for...

The funny thing is, the recovery is pretty much unstoppable. The 'cliff' would be a major stumbling block but the CBO predicted that even if we go over with no deal, the economy is still due to add 9.6 million jobs in the next 4 years. So no deal would mean a loss of up to 3 million jobs and another recession, but the economy will still chug along. Barry's work during his first term, much to the chagrin of anti-American Civil War reenactor neo-secessionists such as some on this board, saved us from another great depression and put us on the road to a strong recovery.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:00 PM   #15
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Default Re: The Fiscal Cliff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Droid101


This old canard? Taxes are lower for rich people than any time in our history. Give us one good reason why their rates can't go back to Clinton levels (the same time we had our last economic boon). Go on, one reason.


I'm not crying for rich people, but I don't think they should be vilified either. Yeah a few percentage points here and there won't mean the end of the world but what happens after that? Come back the next year and say we still need to squeeze you more? Where does it end?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: A country cannot tax itself into prosperity.
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