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Old 01-08-2013, 06:28 PM   #1
bokes15
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Default Your all-time Raptors Squad

15 players, 3 per position. This would be mine.

PG - Mark Jackson/Lowry/Stoudamire
SG - Carter/Jalen Rose/A.Williams
SF - T-Mac/Shawn Marion/Mo-Pete
PF - Bosh/Oakley/JYD
C - Camby/AD/Willis

Notes: Toughest positions to pick for me was PG because as we know, that seems to be the ONE positions we've never had a shortage/drought in. Wanted to put Calderon in there somewhere but feel like he'd be on the fringe. And I put Alvin Williams as a SG simply because I loved the guy and I had to fit him in somewhere. There's no all-time raptors list that I would not put Alvin Williams and JYD on. Two guys that impact went well beyond their numbers. What are yours?
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:58 PM   #2
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Default Re: Your all-time Raptors Squad

Nailed it, I think.

It's kind of sad that T-Mac as a youngster is probably the best Small Forward we've ever had, though.
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:10 PM   #3
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Default Re: Your all-time Raptors Squad

In all honesty, just going by the starting lineup alone and just considering the peak that each player reached in Toronto. 35 year old MJ at the tail end of his career. Young pre-prime T-Mac, and young Camby, you stack that up against the current Miami Heat (assuming Wade is healthy) and it's not a given that we'd win in a 7 game series. How sad is that. But then again, we've had some great players, but we've never had a Lebron OR Wade Calibur player because IMO a prime Wade may not have been as spectacular as a prime VC but he's a much better more consistent player, and much more of a winner.
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Old 01-08-2013, 09:34 PM   #4
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Default Re: Your all-time Raptors Squad

I like that list. I'd have a hard time taking anyone off it, but if I were to tweak it a bit I may Take A dubb off the 2 guard spot and replace him with Doug Christie. One guy i'd love to see on this team, just because, would be Dell Curry. Dude had such a sweet stroke.
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:21 AM   #5
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Default Re: Your all-time Raptors Squad

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
In all honesty, just going by the starting lineup alone and just considering the peak that each player reached in Toronto. 35 year old MJ at the tail end of his career. Young pre-prime T-Mac, and young Camby, you stack that up against the current Miami Heat (assuming Wade is healthy) and it's not a given that we'd win in a 7 game series. How sad is that. But then again, we've had some great players, but we've never had a Lebron OR Wade Calibur player because IMO a prime Wade may not have been as spectacular as a prime VC but he's a much better more consistent player, and much more of a winner.

Based off of what?
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:44 AM   #6
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Default Re: Your all-time Raptors Squad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodigy
Based off of what?

Well, the consistency speaks for itself.

As far as the winner comment goes, it's largely based off of perception of a player's apparent drive, crunch time ability and focus. Wade has personified these qualities since he was a College player, and has won a title as top dog, and as a 1B player, while Vince was often criticized for his lack of determination, despite being one of the most physically gifted players of all time.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:47 AM   #7
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Default Re: Your all-time Raptors Squad

Yeah, i'd say it's pretty self explanatory. The consistency part, well if you've seen him all the way from Marquette to now, it speaks for itself. We had VC for 6+ seasons and it was obvious how his drive and his desire to win was very up and down. He was always good for a highlight real dunk but you almost always questioned his heart and wondered which VC was gonna show up that night. D-Wade showed up on day 1 ready to go and i'm not a Heat fan but I don't think they've ever had to question his heart or desire in all the time he's been there.

The winner part? Lots to base that on as well. He was a winner at Marquette, he has 2 NBA titles and a finals MVP. He's been in the league 9 seasons and his team has division titles in 5 of those years. He's only missed the playoffs once.

Then, there's defense. Vince isn't even a part of that conversation, and D-Wade has been a very solid defender for most of his career. 3X All-NBA defense 2nd team and in his prime years he was a pretty damn elite perimeter defender. VC was an incredibly lazy defender and a lot of teams took advantage of him on that end of the floor. That's why VC has 2 All-NBA teams for his whole career, D-Wade already has 7, and 10 total. Because I think they took being an all-around player into account.

And lastly, check the stats. I could've used that at the beginning but chose to save it for last. D-Wade before joining forces with Bron was putting up some out of this world numbers that Carter never reached even in his best days. What else do you need?

Last edited by bokes15 : 01-09-2013 at 06:01 AM.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:23 AM   #8
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Default Re: Your all-time Raptors Squad

Talent or emotion ?

Different answers.... but emotion...

PG Alvin W / Mighty Mouse
SG Mo Pete / Jalen Rose
SF Vince Carter / TMac
PF Chris Bosh / Charles Oakly
C Jonas V / Kevin Willis / Antonio D

"stats wise" Tmac and Vince were both listed as SF

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/1999.html

Last edited by Jballer : 01-09-2013 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:04 PM   #9
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Default Re: Your all-time Raptors Squad

You would really put Jonas V (currently) as our starting center?
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: Your all-time Raptors Squad

Hakeem, Billups, and Keon Clark all need to be mentioned in this thread.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:02 PM   #11
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Default Re: Your all-time Raptors Squad

Top 15 would be either a break of talent and emotion... so:

PG: Damon Stoudamire/Alvin Williams/Kyle Lowry
SG: Vince Carter/Morris Peterson/Anthony Parker
SF: Tracy McGrady/Shawn Marion/Jalen Rose
PF: Chris Bosh/Charles Oakley/Jerome Williams
C: Antonio Davis/Marcus Camby/Hakeem Olajuwon ()

Honorable Mentions:

Kevin Willis (Big cut, but the Dream had to make it )
Andrea Bargnani (still a nice talent, but too soft for this team)
Jose Calderon (as much as I like him, the 3 PG's I choose are just more talented)
Donyell Marshall (2nd biggest cut; would like his versatility more than Bargs)
Mike James (can't deny he could shoot the rock that year)

There are a lot more players but the ones I selected are just more memorable to me. @ Zan Tabak, yeah no doubt. Clark was a beast; Billups didn't really become a star till he went to Detroit though.

Also, on Wade comparisons... I only consider 5 guards all-time higher than him:

Jerry West
Kobe Bryant
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Oscar Robertson

You could say Vince was more talented than Wade, but that's where the comparison end. Wade is in the conversation of the upper tier of guards like the ones I mentioned above. Vince is in the conversation with guys like Peter Maravich, Gibert Arenas, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller, etc... Good guards, but not in the conversation of all-time peaks and careers are concerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
D-Wade showed up on day 1 ready to go and i'm not a Heat fan but I don't think they've ever had to question his heart or desire in all the time he's been there.

Wade has been questioned by Pat Riley, back in 09-10 circa:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ble/index.html

Quote:
4. Pat Riley publicly questioned Dwyane Wade's conditioning as his numbers have dropped off a bit over last season. (He averaged 30.2 points, 7.5 assists and 5.0 rebounds a game while shooting 49.1 percent last season. Now he's averaging 26.6 points, 6.2 assists and 5.0 rebounds while shooting 43.2 percent.) Is Riley's concern legit?

Thomsen: There is nothing wrong with it. As a matter of fact, it is terrific. Wade wants to win (at least) one more championship, and the only way to get that done is to play at the highest level. How many team presidents or GMs would have the presence to criticize the best player months before he becomes a free agent? This is a signal to Wade that he is playing for one of the most ambitious executives in the league. If Wade signs with another team this summer, will he be held to the same high standard by his new boss?

This is why so few NBA teams ever have any hope of winning a championship: Few team leaders hold the best player to such high standards. Riley's constructive criticism provides Wade with another example of why he should re-sign with Miami.

McCallum: We are all-seeing and all-knowing, but I'm not nearly smart enough to know if Wade is badly out of shape. However, there is little doubt that he's not as sharp as he was when he came off of the Olympic season of last summer, and I'm going to give Riley, a longtime master of what he should and should not do to motivate, the benefit of the doubt. However, if the Heat continue to be a mediocre team, Wade -- out of shape or not -- will run, not walk, into free agency in the summer of 2010.

Mannix: Riley's comments are fair -- Wade has been campaigning for more help all season, and Riley was gently reminding him that there are ways he can help himself -- but I don't think they were as inflammatory as they might have sounded. Even Riley acknowledged that Wade's participation in the Olympics caused him to come to camp last year in unbelievable shape and that conditioning carried into arguably his best season to date. With no USA Basketball last summer -- and a well-deserved break for Wade -- it's not surprising that his conditioning is a little behind. But I think Riley's real motivation here is to remind everyone (Wade included) that the 2009-10 season is not just an 82-game exhibition slate before Wade -- and presumably another top-tier free agent -- tries to restore the Heat's championship swagger next season. There is still a lot of talent on Miami's roster, and Riley wants to make sure the Heat don't forget that there are still high expectations for this season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamberlain
has won a title as top dog, and as a 1B player

Wade was not a 1B player to James in 2012. James was clearly number 1 by 2012. Wade and James 1A/1B in 2011, though.

Last edited by Legends66NBA7 : 01-09-2013 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:04 PM   #12
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Default Re: Your all-time Raptors Squad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zan Tabak
Hakeem, Billups, and Keon Clark all need to be mentioned in this thread.
Billups played like 20 games with us. Hakeem in a Raptors uniform for that one season at age 39 with badly injured knees was just sad and pathetic. Keon Clark I agree. Sucks about the drug problems he got into but he was a great energy guy. Amazing athleticism, good defender, rebounder and shot blocker. And he was a lefty too. Kind of like Ed Davis with more spring in his legs.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:15 PM   #13
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Default Re: Your all-time Raptors Squad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
Top 15 would be either a break of talent and emotion... so:

PG: Damon Stoudamire/Alvin Williams/Kyle Lowry
SG: Vince Carter/Morris Peterson/Anthony Parker
SF: Tracy McGrady/Shawn Marion/Jalen Rose
PF: Chris Bosh/Charles Oakley/Jerome Williams
C: Antonio Davis/Marcus Camby/Hakeem Olajuwon ()

Honorable Mentions:

Kevin Willis (Big cut, but the Dream had to make it )
Andrea Bargnani (still a nice talent, but too soft for this team)
Jose Calderon (as much as I like him, the 3 PG's I choose are just more talented)
Donyell Marshall (2nd biggest cut; would like his versatility more than Bargs)
Mike James (can't deny he could shoot the rock that year)
My list would be very close to that, but with Jose instead of Lowry.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:34 PM   #14
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Default Re: Your all-time Raptors Squad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7

Wade has been questioned by Pat Riley, back in 09-10 circa:
.
True, but my thing with that is even an unmotivated/lazy mid season form D-Wade was better than Vince. The dude was putting up 25/5/7/2/1 in his sleep and getting called out. And on top of that he was wasting his prime on a horrible roster that was banking on pulling a heist in the offseason (which I guess they did, successfully).

Vince on the other hand, it wasn't about conditioning or mid season lulls. It was about heart, desire, drive, his demeanor, his willingness or lackthereof to use his god given ability to attack the basket, his determination. On winning teams it was questioned, on losing teams it was question. He just had that infuriating ability to just turn it on when he wants and then to be in cruise control the rest of the time. That's mainly what i meant.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:03 PM   #15
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Default Re: Your all-time Raptors Squad

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilbeastnani
Billups played like 20 games with us. Hakeem in a Raptors uniform for that one season at age 39 with badly injured knees was just sad and pathetic. Keon Clark I agree. Sucks about the drug problems he got into but he was a great energy guy. Amazing athleticism, good defender, rebounder and shot blocker. And he was a lefty too. Kind of like Ed Davis with more spring in his legs.

I agree with most, but in limited minutes I still believe Hakeem even at that age could give me more than solid effort.

When he was getting starting minutes he could still grab 20 rebounds, block 9 shots, and get double digit points on certain nights. He doesn't have to play out of his mind or anything, but no doubt is a far away shell from Houston Hakeem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
True, but my thing with that is even an unmotivated/lazy mid season form D-Wade was better than Vince. The dude was putting up 25/5/7/2/1 in his sleep and getting called out. And on top of that he was wasting his prime on a horrible roster that was banking on pulling a heist in the offseason (which I guess they did, successfully).

Vince on the other hand, it wasn't about conditioning or mid season lulls. It was about heart, desire, drive, his demeanor, his willingness or lackthereof to use his god given ability to attack the basket, his determination. On winning teams it was questioned, on losing teams it was question. He just had that infuriating ability to just turn it on when he wants and then to be in cruise control the rest of the time. That's mainly what i meant.

Ah okay, I agree with you. Wade is much better even when he isn't giving full effort, which is also shame on how wasted Carter's talent really is. Dude had the full offensive arsenal at his best and all he needed was defensive effort... but you just can't teach effort.
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