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Old 01-10-2013, 03:31 PM   #31
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose
And I make a similar argument for McGwire/Sosa. They might not have made it without steroids (I'm more than too young to remember the start of their careers, much less what they looked like then in comparison to how I remember them looking in the late 90s)


They WOULD NOT have made it without steroids. I'll start with McGwire:


Following the lockout shortened season(age 31), McGwire had just 238 home runs, 834 hits, and was hitting less than .250 for his career. He was also coming off two consecutive severely limited seasons due to injuries. He could not stay healthy.

Rumor going around is he started taking steroids for the 1995 season. That season, he hit 39 HR/90 RBI in just 104 games. Compared to his first 6 seasons in terms of games played, he was on pace for roughly 55 HR/130 RBI, which would have broken by a good amount his personal highs of 49 HR and 118 RBI, both set in his rookie season in 1987. His career was on life support in 1994 and all of a sudden, he's back and hitting at a 55 HR 130 RBI pace, then his second full season back he's hitting 50+ HR with regularity?


Regarding Sosa, he didn't even hit more than 15 HR until his 5th season. He was also a tooth pick when he was young, much like Barry Bonds. Then he starts bulking up and is hitting 30 and 40 HR. As of 1997, he had cracked the 40 HR barrier only once and it was 40 on the nose when he did. How does a guy who's 30 years old, has cracked the 40 HR barrier only once, and averages around 30-35 HR end up hitting over 60 in 3 of the next 4 seasons? I'm sorry, but you don't hit your peak in your mid 30s or when you're in the league for 10 years.

You take away steroids, Barry Bonds is a HOF'er. He proved that in Pittsburgh and his first few seasons in San Fran. McGwire was about to be out of the league at 31 and Sosa was only a 30-35 HR guy until age 30.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:02 PM   #32
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Jeff bagwell stole more bases than Pete rose. Jeff bagwell had a career Obp 30 points higher than rose. Jeff bagwell had a career slugging % .130 points higher than rose. And bagwell isn't in. It's literally impossible to make a valid argument that rose was a better player than bagwell and bagwell isn't in so don't tell me that without the name and without betting Rose would be a no doubt deserving first ballot hofer.

Edit and Rose shouldn't have won his MVP, joe Morgan should have

Last edited by raiderfan19 : 01-10-2013 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:08 PM   #33
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
Bonds '93 had a 9.7 WAR,
Trout '12 had a 10.7 WAR.

I really don't care about those type of recent numbers. Bonds batted .336 and led the league in both home runs with 46 in addition to RBI with 123. He also had 126 walks to league the league with an OBP of .458 while stealing 29 bases and playing gold glove left field. The only thing about his game that wasn't elite was his arm. The Giants also won 103 games that year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose
I was just stating that guilty until proven innocent applies to guys who almost certainly never juiced, Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza etc.

But I agree with you overall. I think Bonds deserves to be in one day, because even if he hadn't juiced he'd be a HOFer. And I make a similar argument for McGwire/Sosa. They might not have made it without steroids (I'm more than too young to remember the start of their careers, much less what they looked like then in comparison to how I remember them looking in the late 90s) But regardless, they saved baseball. Maybe they shouldn't be enshrined because of their records, but the fact that they pretty much saved it says they deserve to be in to me at least.

I agree that it's morally even worse to leave out those guys on that basis without even a direct accuser, but I have less of a problem with those guys not making it than Clemens and Bonds. I'm uncomfortable with all of this. It was bad enough to have an accusation be as good as guilt, but now whispers and pure speculation are the same in some eyes. It's like being accused of being a communist in the 50's, or being accused of murder or child molestation. People have blown this so out of proportion with the individuals they believe were using. I wouldn't say those 3 you mentioned almost certainly never juiced either, but I don't think it's worth discussing whether those 3 did without even an accuser, much less proof or an admission. And leaving them out based on that is taking it a step further.

Problem with McGwire is that there was only a very short period period in his career that he didn't use PEDs during, and that's if you take him at his word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McGwire
"I remember trying steroids very briefly in the 1989-1990 offseason and then after I was injured in 1993, I used steroids again," McGwire said in his statement. "I used them on occasion throughout the '90s, including during the 1998 season."

So, really from '94 on was roids McGwire, assuming he didn't just use them from the '90 continually. Even though '90 was a roid season from him by his own admission, for arguments sake we'll use '94 on. By the way, he hit .235 in 1990, but with 39 home runs, 108 RBI and a league-best 110 walks and actually a gold glove. Anyway, through 1993, McGwire was a career .249 hitter with 229 home runs at age 30. Doesn't look like a hall of famer, more like a Dave Kingman with a better eye. Though McGwire did set a record with 49 home runs as a rookie, a season in which he also batted .289 and had 118 RBI which shows an unusual amount of ability. And also had a season of .268/42/105 in '92. So I can't say for sure that he didn't have a shot at the HOF, but again, Dave Kingman led the league in home runs twice with a high of 48. But for all we know, McGwire used them as soon as he got to the A's, I'd have to see what Canseco says about when McGwire started using them regularly. Not that I take everything Canseco says as a fact.

I wouldn't be surprised if McGwire used them essentially his entire career, he really seems like the biggest steroid abuser in baseball not named Canseco. Just looking at the way he looks now in his late 40's is sad. He looks saggy and at least 10-15 years older than he is. He looks like a mess.

Sosa was a more talented all around player than McGwire. He had power early on, in addition to speed, a strong arm and the ability to hit for more average, but without the discipline to do it consistently early. He may have not been as good as numbers suggest, though. Aside from the lack of discipline at the plate, he was known for a lack of discipline and poor fundamentals elsewhere, such as when stealing bases because 30-30 was a fixation of his, as well as routinely missing the cutoff man.

Problem is there are no reports about when Sosa started taking roids. From what I can find, he was reportedly about 210 pounds in 1998, 222 in 1999 and as high as 236 in 2000. 2002 was when he got pissed at Rick Reilly for challenging him to a drug test(after Sosa said he'd be the first in line when MLB put in a testing policy) and in 2003, he reportedly failed a test. I don't think anyone thinks he was clean during the '98 season, so I'd guess he used from at least '98-'03, possibly before and after.

Pre-'98, he did have two 30-30 seasons, a season in which he hit .300 and a 40 home run season and three 100 RBI seasons. And if you look closer, there was the potential for more. He almost surely would have had another 30-30 season in the '94 strike year when he had 25 home runs and 22 steals. He played all 144 games the following year and had 36 home runs, 34 steals(a more respectable 7 times caught stealing as well) and 119 RBI. In a 162 game season, he was on pace for 41 home runs, 134 RBI and 39 steals. An excellent shot at 40-40. And in 1996, he had played in all 124 games prior to his injury and was on pace for 53 home runs and 131 RBI. So the power he demonstrated in 1998 wasn't completely out of left field for him. But was Sosa clean from 1993-1997?

Either way, knowing how widespread it was, and without knowing just how much they do, I'd vote for Sosa, and even McGwire as well. I'd simply vote for the best players, but I have less of a problem with people not voting for guys they suspect wouldn't have been hall of famers without steroids.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:48 PM   #34
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by raiderfan19
Jeff bagwell stole more bases than Pete rose.

A whopping 4 more.


Quote:
Jeff bagwell had a career Obp 30 points higher than rose.


Bagwell also walked a lot more from intentional walks and pitching around him.


Quote:
Jeff bagwell had a career slugging % .130 points higher than rose.



Bagwell was a power hitter, Pete wasn't.


Quote:
And bagwell isn't in. It's literally impossible to make a valid argument that rose was a better player than bagwell and bagwell isn't in so don't tell me that without the name and without betting Rose would be a no doubt deserving first ballot hofer.


It's literally possible. Rose was a better and more efficient hitter and a better fielder. Rose is a first ballot HOF'er without the betting.


Quote:
Edit and Rose shouldn't have won his MVP, joe Morgan should have



Irrelevant
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:58 PM   #35
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by D.J.
A whopping 4 more.





Bagwell also walked a lot more from intentional walks and pitching around him.





Bagwell was a power hitter, Pete wasn't.





It's literally possible. Rose was a better and more efficient hitter and a better fielder. Rose is a first ballot HOF'er without the betting.

4 more steals in 9 less seasons is something. People didn't pitch around Rose as much because he wasn't as dangerous. How exactly was Rose a better hitter? He got out more often and did less damage with his hits because they were mostly singles. Even his batting avg is only .006 points behind roses. And bagwell is one of the great defensive 1b in baseball history. Rose played more important positions but he didn't play them particularly well.

I'm seriously curious how you would define Rose as a better and more efficient hitter. That's one of the dumbest arguments iv seen. Roses value isn't tied to efficiency, it's tied to longevity. He has the most pas in baseball history


Irrelevant

4 more steals in 9 less seasons is something. People didn't pitch around Rose as much because he wasn't as dangerous. How exactly was Rose a better hitter? He got out more often and did less damage with his hits because they were mostly singles. Even his batting avg is only .006 points behind roses. And bagwell is one of the great defensive 1b in baseball history. Rose played more important positions but he didn't play them particularly well.

I'm seriously curious how you would define Rose as a better and more efficient hitter. That's one of the dumbest arguments iv seen. Roses value isn't tied to efficiency, it's tied to longevity. He has the most pas in baseball history.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:59 PM   #36
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Rose was a better and more efficient hitter
Well, not really. OBP is essentially efficiency. How often a batter avoids an out. Hitting is all about avoiding outs and hitting for power. Bagwell did both better in a straight comparison. The one thing that needs to be taken into consideration is their production relative to their era. That boosts Rose whenever comparing his rate #'s to today's players.
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:30 PM   #37
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
Well, not really. OBP is essentially efficiency. How often a batter avoids an out. Hitting is all about avoiding outs and hitting for power. Bagwell did both better in a straight comparison. The one thing that needs to be taken into consideration is their production relative to their era. That boosts Rose whenever comparing his rate #'s to today's players.
Not enough to make it up. The league line in roses career was .265/.331/.390 in bagwells career it was .267/.338/.421. Roses career ops+ was 118. Bagwells was 149. Bagwell was a better hitter and it isn't all that close
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:21 PM   #38
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Justin Upton rejects trade to Mariners

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Old 01-10-2013, 07:27 PM   #39
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by irondarts
Justin Upton rejects trade to Mariners

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Smart man. That park is gigantic and that lineup is putrid. It's disappointing that he hasn't done more in his career thus far.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:31 PM   #40
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
It's literally possible. Rose was a better and more efficient hitter and a better fielder. Rose is a first ballot HOF'er without the betting.

Bagwell was a better hitter, Rose was a better baserunner (maybe) and fielder. Rose was a great hitter but he was also an accumulator. Bagwell hit for power and average and had an awesome career on base percentage, the problem for him is that people suspect that he used steroids.

Last edited by AngelEyes : 01-10-2013 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:34 PM   #41
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelEyes
Smart man. That park is gigantic and that lineup is putrid. It's disappointing that he hasn't done more in his career thus far.

I dunno I think they're improving. Tough division though. They got Morales for Jason Vargas atleast.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:36 PM   #42
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywalker
I dunno I think they're improving. Tough division though. They got Morales for Jason Vargas atleast.

It wouldn't be wise for Justin to go to one of the worst hitting parks in baseball, it would however be beneficial to King Felix.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:37 PM   #43
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywalker
I dunno I think they're improving. Tough division though. They got Morales for Jason Vargas atleast.

The American League West, like the A.L. East, is an absolute bitch. The central is by far the weakest.
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:01 PM   #44
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelEyes
Bagwell was a better hitter, Rose was a better baserunner (maybe) and fielder. Rose was a great hitter but he was also an accumulator. Bagwell hit for power and average and had an awesome career on base percentage, the problem for him is that people suspect that he used steroids.
This is by far not the only thing that makes someone a better base runner but bagwell stole 202 bases and was thrown out 78 times. Rose stole 198 and was thrown out 154 times. Bagwell was the better player. It's not close
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:04 PM   #45
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Default Re: MLB Thread 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelEyes
The American League West, like the A.L. East, is an absolute bitch. The central is by far the weakest.
The west is much worse for a hitter because every park but Texas is an extreme pitchers park.(one reason why rangers hitters home road splits will always look worse than normal, yes tbia is a hitters park but it's also that the other 3 parks are among the 10 best pitchers parks in baseball) given the unbalanced schedule, you don't want to spend over 100 games playing in Seattle, Anaheim and Oakland.
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