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Old 01-11-2013, 05:36 PM   #31
andgar923
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

I just reverted almost 2 years ago.

One of the main questions I had regarding Islam was the moderate Muslims view on extremists. Most Muslims are actually rather moderate, only in certain regions are they extreme but that's mainly due to political pressure guised to oppress their people.

Most Muslims don't condone most of extremist's actions nor do they want to be affiliated with them anymore than what most Italians feel about 'Guidos'. That isn't to say that they disagree with some of their core ideals, they simply don't agree with their actions.

They are coined 'extremists' for a reason. They warp religious texts and take a literal interpretation of something that at times isn't even meant to be taken literal. They misinterpret and take out of context to fulfill their emotions, and have the chemical imbalance in their brain to go out and take action.

Btw…. who are we referring to "extremists"?

I'm sure most of us have extremist beliefs in some way, we may take a poll and answer one way. But that doesn't mean we're gonna actually take action. So are we referring to the people that take action such as suicide bombers and whatnot, or just people that have strong political views?

You know, strong political/religious views like the ones most of the world has about their religion/political party or none affiliation (aka atheist/agnostics/ independent/non voters).

Shit…. some will even say that many sports fans are extremists as well, since they commit acts of passion.
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Old 01-12-2013, 02:56 AM   #32
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGzBuNNy
Excellent post. Not just towards miller-time who's obviously a smart dude, but just in general

As I said this is only a small part of my life on these forums and in real life. Also you have to think that nearly all of my interactions with you and LOJ are in these types of threads, so obviously you have a skewed perception of me. When I made this specific thread I also had another thread on the main page than neither of you guys had posted in (and I was participating in a couple of other random threads too). So you can't say that God is always on my mind if the only time you speak to me is in religion related threads - that'd be an inductive reasoning fallacy.
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Old 01-12-2013, 02:02 PM   #33
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miller-time
As I said this is only a small part of my life on these forums and in real life. Also you have to think that nearly all of my interactions with you and LOJ are in these types of threads, so obviously you have a skewed perception of me. When I made this specific thread I also had another thread on the main page than neither of you guys had posted in (and I was participating in a couple of other random threads too). So you can't say that God is always on my mind if the only time you speak to me is in religion related threads - that'd be an inductive reasoning fallacy.
The fact that most of our interactions are in these types of threads doesn't skew my perception. I mean, it's not like that's the only time I see you post..when we interact. This would only be true if the only threads I ever opened were these types
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Old 01-12-2013, 02:19 PM   #34
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

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Originally Posted by DCL
i think they just use religion as a veil to hide their own hatred of life, hatred that they've been dealt a bunch of sh!tty cards. if they had no religious teachings, they'd still be pissed off. they just hate their lives. they'd rather kill their own sh!tty lives than let you enjoy yours.

The Shitty lives they live is due to "us" living beyond our means. Is it fair that we consume 10 times more in resources than people who live in 3rd world countries. Additionally, we invade, bomb, and economically cripple these nations while were at it.
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Old 01-12-2013, 05:58 PM   #35
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

posted this earlier and for some reason it didn't take..



i don't really think the question makes much sense

i guess that stems from the huge misconception in the west that these jihadist militants and suicide bombers and the rest represent a real religious phenomenon, and it's their specific doctrine or ancient culture that makes them more violent than the 'extremists' of any other religion

it's complicated, but on a straight assessment, i don't buy that for a second. this is a strictly political trend that's been infused with religion just by nature of the regional demographics in question. the middle east to south asia is made up mostly of muslims. and they've got more easily accessible oil than just about anywhere else in the world. the region has also been held as a super significant strategic asset for well over half a century now, as a check on soviet aggression from the north and chinese influence from the east. it's been tangled up in geopolitical strategy for a very long time now.

so we know all that. we know the entire north african coast, and almost every country from the eastern edge of the mediterranean to the ind-pak border, have been the targets of EXTREME (there's that word again) crimes of intimidation and terror on the behest of imperial western powers, whose rhetoric in support of world democracy is almost comically undermined by their consistent actions, arming and diplomatically supporting hideously oppressive military and/or royal family dictatorships. the most powerful countries in the world are exploiting the less powerful for their own economic benefit. big surprise.

this is all pretty common knowledge, i don't think at this point anybody can really dispute that all of that has been going on for many decades now



so knowing all of that, why do we continue with this pretense that cell groups like al-queada have sprung up organically as a simple result of a scriptural misinterpretation, just a bunch of nutjobs who happened upon one another and decided "hey lets blame all our problems on america!"? that's just completely wrongheaded

there's no way you can justify their methods. they're murderers plain and simple. and for that reason, i reckon there's an appropriate amount of apology from the 'moderate' (read: normal) muslim population. though not from say, indonesia the most populous muslim country in the world because they have absolutely nothing to do with the POLITICAL conflict in question. but outright condemnation of their means doesn't mean you can't understand their reasons. at the heart of any crime, if you go back far enough, you can usually find some degree of legitimacy.

and the same goes for a sane palestinian or iraqi, a moderate iranian green party member. they're in a moral bind. even if they can't for a second even consider supporting militant jihad, they understand full well its a strategy of last resort in the face of an overwhelmingly powerful enemy with no intention of backing off in the near future. its just a really shitty situation.



i think if you asked the bombers themselves, they'd tell you they're on a religious mission. i for one wouldn't take them on their word. they're trapped in an alternate version of the same cognitive dissonance that ensnares most western intellects. they're a byproduct of modern global affairs and their aims actually have remarkably little to do with their faith.
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:36 PM   #36
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

Moderete muslims = Republicans, or maybe a less crazy and dramatic version of tea party? Or am I way off?
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:25 PM   #37
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash
Moderete muslims = Republicans, or maybe a less crazy and dramatic version of tea party? Or am I way off?

I wouldnt say way off, but I think it is the wrong way to think about it tbh. that is a very ethnocentric way to look at things. The Muslim world has many countries in which there are MANY politic parties and subdivisions within them and it is not that simple to categorize Muslims as it would be for an American citizen. As opposed to voting to a specific set of beliefs and ideologies, because of the multiparty system in many countries, you may vote for what you want/believe in regardless of all the other "stuff"

From my experience many new Muslims citizens to the US. and Canada especially have aligned themselves with the Republican Party because of similar views against gay marriage and abortion. It is them exercising their political right based on very specific issues, rather than their affinity for a specific party. I think that's why it's easy to make that assumption.
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Old 01-12-2013, 08:29 PM   #38
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burgz V2
I wouldnt say way off, but I think it is the wrong way to think about it tbh. that is a very ethnocentric way to look at things. The Muslim world has many countries in which there are MANY politic parties and subdivisions within them and it is not that simple to categorize Muslims as it would be for an American citizen. As opposed to voting to a specific set of beliefs and ideologies, because of the multiparty system in many countries, you may vote for what you want/believe in regardless of all the other "stuff"

From my experience many new Muslims citizens to the US. and Canada especially have aligned themselves with the Republican Party because of similar views against gay marriage and abortion. It is them exercising their political right based on very specific issues, rather than their affinity for a specific party. I think that's why it's easy to make that assumption.

I find that interesting because of the kind of of hatred the republican party seems to have for muslims blaming them for all sorts of things. The muslims i know align themselves with the democrats because of their somewhat accepting stance towards them.
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Old 01-12-2013, 08:44 PM   #39
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hovermaster
I find that interesting because of the kind of of hatred the republican party seems to have for muslims blaming them for all sorts of things. The muslims i know align themselves with the democrats because of their somewhat accepting stance towards them.

I was simply referring to the earlier post as to why that poster would classify "moderate" Muslims as akin to Republicans. If you read my post I said new Muslim citizens. They usually are more conservative and would rather stop people from committing "infanticide" and sodomy, even if it means aligning with a group of people that hates every last fiber in their bodies.

I myself am a Muslim who would fit exactly what you would describe. I live in Canada though, so I'm not a democrat, but I'm an NDP voter (New Democrat Party, the official opposition, essentially the socialist party in Canada) because I've never met an NDP that didn't judged me for my religious practices and they take the harshest stance against the Conservative party in Canada and their continued practice of institutionalized prejudice not only against Muslims but all minorities as well as the people indigenous the land this country was built on.

You know you're in trouble when your own Prime Minister says the number threat to Canada are "Muslimists"
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Old 01-12-2013, 09:14 PM   #40
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

Quote:
From my experience many new Muslims citizens to the US. and Canada especially have aligned themselves with the Republican Party because of similar views against gay marriage and abortion. It is them exercising their political right based on very specific issues, rather than their affinity for a specific party. I think that's why it's easy to make that assumption.
don't think this is the case

at least in canada, politics aren't really divided along religious lines of any form (usa is pretty unique in that regard at least for secular countries).. but even then, i think a majority of muslims voted liberal. not many muslims in the country so it doesn't really matter. and regardless, the issues you mentioned like abortion and gay marriage aren't live issues here so there's no reason for muslims to vote socially conservative.

and in the states, im reasonably certain muslims have been voting democratic by significant margins for a while now. which makes sense for the exact reason hovermaster mentioned.
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Old 01-12-2013, 09:38 PM   #41
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

Radical muslims are not just at war with the west. They have also caused problems with the Hindus, genocide in Sudan, terrorized Thailand buddhists, etc. It is very much about faith for some.
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Old 01-12-2013, 09:49 PM   #42
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM
The Shitty lives they live is due to "us" living beyond our means. Is it fair that we consume 10 times more in resources than people who live in 3rd world countries. Additionally, we invade, bomb, and economically cripple these nations while were at it.

LOL this. Nobody just wakes up one day and decides hey let me strap a bomb up to myself.
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Old 01-12-2013, 09:57 PM   #43
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
don't think this is the case

at least in canada, politics aren't really divided along religious lines of any form (usa is pretty unique in that regard at least for secular countries).. but even then, i think a majority of muslims voted liberal. not many muslims in the country so it doesn't really matter. and regardless, the issues you mentioned like abortion and gay marriage aren't live issues here so there's no reason for muslims to vote socially conservative.

and in the states, im reasonably certain muslims have been voting democratic by significant margins for a while now. which makes sense for the exact reason hovermaster mentioned.

i address this in my following post above.
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:03 PM   #44
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

Extremists(Wahabbis) are a minority position in modern Islam and usually form small groups that are mostly separated from general society, this is the case in modern islam countries where those groups don't provide any danger. Of course it's different in Afghanistan were the Taliban basically runs shit. So I guess you understand that it is hard to hold someone with such power and influence in day to day life in check. It's like asking why North Koreans don't demonstrate against their government.
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:09 PM   #45
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jello
Radical muslims are not just at war with the west. They have also caused problems with the Hindus, genocide in Sudan, terrorized Thailand buddhists, etc. It is very much about faith for some.
they also don't hold exclusive rights to terrorism or suicide bombing. nor are they the only group to infuse their objectives with religious rhetoric.

you can't generalize across dozens of countries and hundreds of groups without finding exceptions but for the most part these are acts of political resistance, as opposed to small steps towards a larger goal of global jihad or w/e.
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