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Old 01-12-2013, 10:22 PM   #46
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

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Originally Posted by longtime lurker
LOL this. Nobody just wakes up one day and decides hey let me strap a bomb up to myself.

This is a bit incorrect from what I've seen. I think to many of these disaffected people (a significant number, at least early on actually came from lower middle class or higher back grounds) it is just easier to blame the west for your problems than to take on the corrupt regimes at home who will brutally crack down on you, your family and your friends. The regimes have done a good job deflecting their own culpability and putting things squarely on the western powers. The western powers, of course didn't help by their actions in some of these countries. It's simply a lot easier to blame outside sources for your problems than the actual source of the problem.

To me it is almost akin to the slavery debate in the US. The west certainly has the blame for imperialism and how some of those nations have been carved and cobbled together, but how long can you lay blame to history and not look to those who are currently running things. For all the influence of the west the Arab spring to me clearly shows the people of these countries can topple the regimes if they truly have had enough. Libya, Egypt and others have toppled regimes and Syria is currently fighting one. They can't say the west is holding back change within any longer.
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:37 PM   #47
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IcanzIIravor
This is a bit incorrect from what I've seen. I think to many of these disaffected people (a significant number, at least early on actually came from lower middle class or higher back grounds) it is just easier to blame the west for your problems than to take on the corrupt regimes at home who will brutally crack down on you, your family and your friends. The regimes have done a good job deflecting their own culpability and putting things squarely on the western powers. The western powers, of course didn't help by their actions in some of these countries. It's simply a lot easier to blame outside sources for your problems than the actual source of the problem.

To me it is almost akin to the slavery debate in the US. The west certainly has the blame for imperialism and how some of those nations have been carved and cobbled together, but how long can you lay blame to history and not look to those who are currently running things. For all the influence of the west the Arab spring to me clearly shows the people of these countries can topple the regimes if they truly have had enough. Libya, Egypt and others have toppled regimes and Syria is currently fighting one. They can't say the west is holding back change within any longer.

Yes, but the people who currently "run things" only do so with western support. That is especially true in examples in mineral rich African nations and Oil rich arab nations. A few examples, look at America's culpability in Africa's great war, so yes imperialism has been detrimental to the developments of these nations but imperialism continues in the modern era.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:26 PM   #48
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

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Originally Posted by MMM
Yes, but the people who currently "run things" only do so with western support. That is especially true in examples in mineral rich African nations and Oil rich arab nations. A few examples, look at America's culpability in Africa's great war, so yes imperialism has been detrimental to the developments of these nations but imperialism continues in the modern era.

If the people rise up these days you won't see the western powers coming in with military might to prop up these governments. For sure nations pour in money and weapons, but that is not the west alone doing so. If the people rise up the west looks on with anxiousness, but for the most part stays out to see which side gains an advantage. You saw it in Libya, you saw it in Egypt and you are seeing it in Syria. You think we will be stepping in to any of these nations if and when these people rise up in this day and age?

Same thing I foresee in Africa once these various factions and groups stop fighting each other and actually come together to take on the corrupt regimes.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:43 PM   #49
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Default Re: Question about Muslim extremists and moderates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IcanzIIravor
This is a bit incorrect from what I've seen. I think to many of these disaffected people (a significant number, at least early on actually came from lower middle class or higher back grounds) it is just easier to blame the west for your problems than to take on the corrupt regimes at home who will brutally crack down on you, your family and your friends. The regimes have done a good job deflecting their own culpability and putting things squarely on the western powers. The western powers, of course didn't help by their actions in some of these countries. It's simply a lot easier to blame outside sources for your problems than the actual source of the problem.

Well when the western powers install puppet regimes it becomes a whole chicken and the egg thing situation. And of course these those disenfranchised still fight against the regimes, but the view the West as the source and you'll always have a sense of don't F with my country. For example, for some Americans they'd damn near start a revolution if the government took away their right to bear arms, now imagine if China was influencing the governments decision? Imagine the amount of anger directed towards China for meddling in their countries affairs. Now throw in innocent family members being killed by military strikes and you can see why those disenfranchised are easy targets for terrorist recruitment. Be that as it may the vast majority of people killed from terrorists attacks are still Muslims. Go figure.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by IcanzIIravor
To me it is almost akin to the slavery debate in the US. The west certainly has the blame for imperialism and how some of those nations have been carved and cobbled together, but how long can you lay blame to history and not look to those who are currently running things. For all the influence of the west the Arab spring to me clearly shows the people of these countries can topple the regimes if they truly have had enough. Libya, Egypt and others have toppled regimes and Syria is currently fighting one. They can't say the west is holding back change within any longer.

As for the whole slavery debate I'm just going to tell you to look up the term political socialization as to why a lot of post colonial countries are still a mess. Not to mention again there is still a colonial influence in these countries.
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