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Old 01-15-2013, 02:31 PM   #91
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Default Re: It needs to be discussed. Manning and his shortcomings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kujo
This. QBs are the faces of NFL teams for the most part. The NFL is all about the QB. Right or wrong.
it is most definitely "wrong"

and I will continue to point out that it is wrong until that mind set stops...if it never stops then so be it


These guys play with 52 teammates that all affect the game for better or for worse...but the way conversations in here go you would think we are talking about golf...
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:13 PM   #92
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Default Re: It needs to be discussed. Manning and his shortcomings

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Originally Posted by Kujo
This. QBs are the faces of NFL teams for the most part. The NFL is all about the QB. Right or wrong.

Yea, if Peyton can wing a ring next year suddenly the choker label disapears and he enters GOAT status.

In all honesty it was tough for Peyton winning a ring his first year on a new squad. It reminded me alot of Favre with Minny his first year. No one expected anything from both guys, both teams were fringe playoff teams the year before, both were balling in the regular season and both finished their seasons with their prized QB's throwing costly interceptions(both in OT?)

I think Peyton will get his second ring next year sort of like in 2006 after he choked terribly the year before.
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:28 PM   #93
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Default Re: It needs to be discussed. Manning and his shortcomings

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Originally Posted by knickballer
Yea, if Peyton can wing a ring next year suddenly the choker label disapears and he enters GOAT status.

In all honesty it was tough for Peyton winning a ring his first year on a new squad. It reminded me alot of Favre with Minny his first year. No one expected anything from both guys, both teams were fringe playoff teams the year before, both were balling in the regular season and both finished their seasons with their prized QB's throwing costly interceptions(both in OT?)

I think Peyton will get his second ring next year sort of like in 2006 after he choked terribly the year before.



There is absolutely no way you can qualify his game vs. the Steelers in the 2005 playoffs as choking.
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Old 01-15-2013, 05:36 PM   #94
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Default Re: It needs to be discussed. Manning and his shortcomings

I think the whole concept of "choking" is massively overblown by NFL fans...and yes being a Dallas fan obviously I have been forced to think about it more.

These guys play on a "big stage" every single game...I don't for a second think that some magic force makes them play differently during certain games or quarters, or minutes...etc

I don't believe in a "clutch gene"...it's a stupid belief


sometimes QBs throw INTs...and sometimes they come at the end of games...it isn't because they "choked" and it isn't because of a "clutch gene"...it is just because they threw an INT just like any other time they throw an INT.

Every now and then Peyton throws an INT...he didn't in the 4th quarter or in the 1st OT...does that make him "clutch" for being INT free those 2 quarters?...he did happen to throw one in the 2nd OT...if they played in 100 OTs eventually someone is going to throw an INT, it is just the nature of the game, shit happens.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:41 PM   #95
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Default Re: It needs to be discussed. Manning and his shortcomings

It's something though i think is a valid thing to cite when you compare QB's. There are those points in a game where plays need to be made. In a regular season game, Peyton is freaking automatic at times. In the playoffs, he's not. It's definitely a valid thing. It doesn't mean he sucks, but compared with a player (like Brady) who also has similar success, it definitely differentiats them. Montana is not GOAT because he was a consistent regular season performer. He was GOAT because not only was he money regular season, he got to the super bowl 4 times, WON 4 times, and drove his team down the field to win in huge moments. As a Giant fan to me he's goat because to beat him, we pretty much needed to kill him. Literally knock him out.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:45 PM   #96
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Default Re: It needs to be discussed. Manning and his shortcomings

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Originally Posted by niko
It's something though i think is a valid thing to cite when you compare QB's. There are those points in a game where plays need to be made. In a regular season game, Peyton is freaking automatic at times. In the playoffs, he's not. It's definitely a valid thing. It doesn't mean he sucks, but compared with a player (like Brady) who also has similar success, it definitely differentiats them. Montana is not GOAT because he was a consistent regular season performer. He was GOAT because not only was he money regular season, he got to the super bowl 4 times, WON 4 times, and drove his team down the field to win in huge moments. As a Giant fan to me he's goat because to beat him, we pretty much needed to kill him. Literally knock him out.

Leonard Marshall.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:47 PM   #97
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Default Re: It needs to be discussed. Manning and his shortcomings

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Originally Posted by niko
It's something though i think is a valid thing to cite when you compare QB's. There are those points in a game where plays need to be made. In a regular season game, Peyton is freaking automatic at times. In the playoffs, he's not. It's definitely a valid thing. It doesn't mean he sucks, but compared with a player (like Brady) who also has similar success, it definitely differentiats them. Montana is not GOAT because he was a consistent regular season performer. He was GOAT because not only was he money regular season, he got to the super bowl 4 times, WON 4 times, and drove his team down the field to win in huge moments. As a Giant fan to me he's goat because to beat him, we pretty much needed to kill him. Literally knock him out.
Yeah agreed but what I am saying is that I don't think Peyton is actually worse in the playoffs...he is the same player

if his stats are lower it is probably much more to do with his opponents being much better in the post season when compared to the regular season and not because of some magic clutch gene that doesn't kick in for him.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:40 PM   #98
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Default Re: It needs to be discussed. Manning and his shortcomings

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Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
Yeah agreed but what I am saying is that I don't think Peyton is actually worse in the playoffs...he is the same player

if his stats are lower it is probably much more to do with his opponents being much better in the post season when compared to the regular season and not because of some magic clutch gene that doesn't kick in for him.
He doesn't get it done at as high a pct as we've seen Brady and Montana do it. That's it. Which makes him probably behind them on the GOAT chart. I think people lose fact sometimes that's what we are discussing, not is Peyton good or not (which would be asinine beyond belief) it's his status compared to the greatest players all time.

In his defense though, his team gave up 35 pts. Montana didn't have defenses that gave up 35 pts. (Although i still take Montana over him.)
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:42 PM   #99
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Default Re: It needs to be discussed. Manning and his shortcomings

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Originally Posted by GOBB
Leonard Marshall.
I remember that hit. It was like HOLY SHIT, WE KILLED HIM. Is he going to get up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZDSS9rw3x0

For the youngins...
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:48 PM   #100
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Default Re: It needs to be discussed. Manning and his shortcomings

Quote:
Originally Posted by niko
He doesn't get it done at as high a pct as we've seen Brady and Montana do it. That's it. Which makes him probably behind them on the GOAT chart. I think people lose fact sometimes that's what we are discussing, not is Peyton good or not (which would be asinine beyond belief) it's his status compared to the greatest players all time.

In his defense though, his team gave up 35 pts. Montana didn't have defenses that gave up 35 pts. (Although i still take Montana over him.)
his passer rating post season is about equal to Brady's...they are about the same

Montana's is higher than both...he is >>>

but if you are asking who preforms better post season between Brady and Peyton? they aren't much different.

the only way you can make them different is by looking at wins and loses...which are a TEAM stat...like you said, the Bronco's D gave up 35 points.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:51 PM   #101
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Default Re: It needs to be discussed. Manning and his shortcomings

man, Peyton is lucky as hell he has the one ring to fall on, because if he didn't have that the "choking clutch gene" fans would wreck him so hard that Romo would feel sorry for him.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:58 PM   #102
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Default Re: It needs to be discussed. Manning and his shortcomings

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Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
the only way you can make them different is by looking at wins and loses...which are a TEAM stat...like you said, the Bronco's D gave up 35 points.

well, really it was 28 but that pick 6 was bullshit and should have been called PI for sure.

the announcers forgiving the refs for missing such a blatant call (and any others) with the weak excuse of "well it was a bang bang play" was awful after they had no issues slamming the replacement refs for similar egregious mistakes.
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:16 PM   #103
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Default Re: It needs to be discussed. Manning and his shortcomings

in the playoffs, everything you do is considered choke or clutch. 4th quarter is just even more highlighted. In the regular season, it's just 4th or later.
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Old 01-16-2013, 04:11 AM   #104
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Default Re: It needs to be discussed. Manning and his shortcomings

Quote:
Originally Posted by niko
Montana is not GOAT because he was a consistent regular season performer. He was GOAT because not only was he money regular season, he got to the super bowl 4 times, WON 4 times, and drove his team down the field to win in huge moments. As a Giant fan to me he's goat because to beat him, we pretty much needed to kill him. Literally knock him out.

Rice had nothing to do with it? Dwight Clark with 'The Catch' had nothing to do with it? In his first SB win, their defense recorded 5 sacks, got 2 interceptions and added 2 more fumbles recoveries, but it was all Montana (who only had 1 TD pass in that game)? And that doesn't even take into account the other postseason games that year. In his 2nd SB win, their defense held the Dolphins to a season-low 16 points, which is half what they averaged a game. Yeah, the offense was great, too with Montana, but Craig had 3 TDs himself. In his 3rd SB win, again their defense held the other team well below their season average (their 2nd lowest point total that season). Montana had a good game, so did Craig, but MVP Jerry Rice set a SB record with 215 receiving yards. In his 4th SB, well, it was the poor Broncos who just got brutalized in damn near every aspect of the game.

Outside of that 1 SB game against the Bengals, I don't really think there was a time where Montana had to drive his team down the field in a huge moment.
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Old 01-16-2013, 04:15 AM   #105
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Default Re: It needs to be discussed. Manning and his shortcomings

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
I think the whole concept of "choking" is massively overblown by NFL fans...and yes being a Dallas fan obviously I have been forced to think about it more.

These guys play on a "big stage" every single game...I don't for a second think that some magic force makes them play differently during certain games or quarters, or minutes...etc

I don't believe in a "clutch gene"...it's a stupid belief


sometimes QBs throw INTs...and sometimes they come at the end of games...it isn't because they "choked" and it isn't because of a "clutch gene"...it is just because they threw an INT just like any other time they throw an INT.

Every now and then Peyton throws an INT...he didn't in the 4th quarter or in the 1st OT...does that make him "clutch" for being INT free those 2 quarters?...he did happen to throw one in the 2nd OT...if they played in 100 OTs eventually someone is going to throw an INT, it is just the nature of the game, shit happens.

It's the just the term for when a player makes a blunder that costs his team the game in a pressure situation at the end of a game when everything is on the line. It might not be the most fair term, though.
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