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Old 01-14-2013, 03:49 AM   #16
brandonislegend
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Default Re: Redrafting the 2012 NBA Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGotACoolStory
Don't want to quote the entire thing because it will clog up the page...

But because GMs are now drafting with some perspective on how the player fits in the NBA?

I don't think many people whom have objectively watched both will say they prefer Waiters over Beal. Nevermind fit for the team (which I think Beal fits better too), just purely as a basketball talent, Beal appears more well rounded with more upside. To me at least.

To gain perspective on where I see the two:
-imo, Beal is a fringe all-star talent. Good starting SG in the NBA.
-Waiters is a 4th, maybe 5th option who needs the ball likes he's a top two option. High and inefficient scorer on a bad team. Very good 6th man on a championship caliber squad.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time, but it's what I see right now.

I concur, Beal would be a better fit next to Kyrie imo.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:56 AM   #17
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Default Re: Redrafting the 2012 NBA Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
If the Cavs preferred Waiters to Beal prior to the draft, what has changed over the first 40 games to drastically change their minds?

Dion Waiters
30.8 minutes
14.2 points (37.3% FG, 78.2% FT, 31.1% 3PT)
3.2 assists
2.5 rebounds
1.2 steals
2.0 turnovers

Brad Beal
31.5 minutes
13.2 points (36.2% FG, 81.6% FT, 32.4% 3PT)
2.6 assists
3.7 rebounds
1.0 steals
1.6 turnovers






Reports after the draft -- namely the one issued by Windhorst who was embedded in the Cavs' war room -- stated that the Cavs' board looked like this... 1. Davis, 2. Waiters, MKG, 3. Everybody else (they knew either MKG or Waiters would be there).

The real interesting thing would have been if both MKG and Waiters were on the board.
You put Beal on that Cavs team and he puts up much better numbers then the pedistrian numbers Waiters puts up next to Kyrie Irving. You put Waiters on the Wiz team without John Wall and they probably have 2-3 wins right now.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:58 AM   #18
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Default Re: Redrafting the 2012 NBA Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGotACoolStory
I don't think many people whom have objectively watched both will say they prefer Waiters over Beal. Nevermind fit for the team (which I think Beal fits better too), just purely as a basketball talent, Beal appears more well rounded with more upside. To me at least.
To be fair, how many people have seen enough of both players to accurately make that kind of assessment? I know I haven't seen enough of Beal to say how his career will project and how he may fit on a completely different team in a completely different situation.

Hell, I'm not even sure we are to point with these rookies where these kinds of sweeping prognostications are even possible.

With that said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGotACoolStory
To gain perspective on where I see the two:
-imo, Beal is a fringe all-star talent. Good starting SG in the NBA.
-Waiters is a 4th, maybe 5th option who needs the ball likes he's a top two option. High and inefficient scorer on a bad team. Very good 6th man on a championship caliber squad.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time, but it's what I see right now.

Again, haven't seen enough of Beal to even hypothesize on where his ceiling is, but -- having seen every game for Waiters -- his ceiling is pretty damn high, I think. Now, whether he will reach it? Who knows.

But, he has an amazing first step and that's something which can't be taught. It seems a bit odd to me that Beal, who is supposed to be such a far superior shooter, still hasn't proven to be one either on the collegiate or professional level yet.

Their efficiency right now, both in terms of overall floor game and from behind the arc, are very similar... Almost exactly the same.

Time will tell, but I don't think there is any way in the world the Cavs' board would change at this point if there was a re-do. Nor do I think the Cavs are discouraged with what Dion has shown thus far. His numbers actually stack up well with the others 2s taken in this draft and he has absolutely massive room for improvement.

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Old 01-14-2013, 04:03 AM   #19
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Default Re: Redrafting the 2012 NBA Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brook(lyn)Lopez
You put Beal on that Cavs team and he puts up much better numbers then the pedistrian numbers Waiters puts up next to Kyrie Irving. You put Waiters on the Wiz team without John Wall and they probably have 2-3 wins right now.
Conjecture and speculation. It could also be argued that Waiters on the Wizards could allow him to serve as the primary ball-handler and inflate his statistics as a result, as opposed to having to be relegated to the offense initiator only when Kyrie wants to take a possession off.

That argument works both ways.

Even in his current limited playmaking role on the Cavs, Waiters has shown an ability to create for others on a relatively regular basis. Is Beal even the primary ball-handler in Washington? If so, why only 2.6 assists per game? If not, why not... Considering they are a team completely lacking in playmakers on the perimeter.
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:10 AM   #20
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Default Re: Redrafting the 2012 NBA Draft

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Originally Posted by andremiller07
There were two reasons Sully went so low one is cause of his back issues and the other was people didn't know how his game would translate into the NBA while being a good player in college. If he stays injury free than yeah teams will be kicking themselves.

Austin Rivers should have been a mid-late 2nd round pick at best
Isn't the first guy it's happened to either. DeJuan Blair slid to the 2nd round cause teams were scared off by his knees and guys like Millsap and Boozer were 2nd round picks because teams thought they wouldn't be big enough for the NBA.
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:19 AM   #21
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Default Re: Redrafting the 2012 NBA Draft

Millsap in the 2nd round was nonsense. Guy led NCAA in rebounding for 3 years, and probably would have made it 4 if he didn't join the NBA. You don't look past that kind of talent because he isn't 6'10".
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:19 AM   #22
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Default Re: Redrafting the 2012 NBA Draft

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Originally Posted by El Kabong
Isn't the first guy it's happened to either. DeJuan Blair slid to the 2nd round cause teams were scared off by his knees and guys like Millsap and Boozer were 2nd round picks because teams thought they wouldn't be big enough for the NBA.
Not to mention Isaiah Thomas....
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:24 AM   #23
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Default Re: Redrafting the 2012 NBA Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brook(lyn)Lopez
You put Beal on that Cavs team and he puts up much better numbers then the pedistrian numbers Waiters puts up next to Kyrie Irving. You put Waiters on the Wiz team without John Wall and they probably have 2-3 wins right now.
And, one last thing in relation to this post... We actually do have a series of games which shows how Waiters performs without Irving.

Kyrie was hurt Nov. 18 against the Sixers. He didn't come back until Dec. 11 against the Lakers. That means he missed 11 games. Waiters played in seven of those 11 games before suffering an injury of his own.



Here is how Waiters did without Kyrie...

Nov. 21 @ Sixers: 16 points, 6 assists, 4 rebounds, 2 turnovers
Nov. 23 @ Magic: 25 points, 5 assists, 3 rebounds, 2 steals, 0 turnovers
Nov. 24 @ Heat: 16 points, 2 assists, 1 rebound, 1 steal, 1 turnover
Nov. 26 @ Grizzlies: 15 points, 3 assists, 0 rebounds, 4 steals, 2 turnovers
Nov. 27 vs Suns: 16 points, 7 assists, 3 rebounds, 4 steals, 2 turnovers
Nov. 30 @ Hawks: 21 points, 7 assists, 1 rebound, 4 turnovers
Dec. 1 vs Blazers: 12 points, 7 assists, 5 rebounds, 1 steal, 2 turnovers

Waiters' Averages Without Irving
7 games
35.9 minutes
17.3 points (34.0% FG, 28.3% 3PT, 88% FT)
5.3 assists
2.4 rebounds
1.4 steals
2.0 turnovers


Of course, this is only a seven game sample, but that was a difficult stretch of games, five of which were on the road. Waiters was asked to be the primary playmaker on a team whose best player was out and he put up 17.3 points, 5.3 assists and just 2 turnovers a night. That isn't bad for a 20-year-old rookie in a tough spot.

Look, I'm not making any definitive statements about either Waiters or Beal or anyone else. Actually, my point is that you can't at this stage... Especially when you start talking about switching around the variables.

Last edited by RedBlackAttack : 01-14-2013 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:25 AM   #24
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Default Re: Redrafting the 2012 NBA Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Conjecture and speculation. It could also be argued that Waiters on the Wizards could allow him to serve as the primary ball-handler and inflate his statistics as a result, as opposed to having to be relegated to the offense initiator only when Kyrie wants to take a possession off.

That argument works both ways.

Even in his current limited playmaking role on the Cavs, Waiters has shown an ability to create for others on a relatively regular basis. Is Beal even the primary ball-handler in Washington? If so, why only 2.6 assists per game? If not, why not... Considering they are a team completely lacking in playmakers on the perimeter.

It's much easier playing next to one of the best PG in the league then playing next to Shelvin Mack.
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:27 AM   #25
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Default Re: Redrafting the 2012 NBA Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
And, one last thing in relation to this post... We actually do have a series of games which shows how Waiters performs without Irving.

Kyrie was hurt Nov. 18 against the Sixers. He didn't come back until Dec. 11 against the Lakers. That means he missed 11 games. Waiters played in seven of those 11 games before suffering an injury of his own.



Here is how Waiters did without Kyrie...

Nov. 21 @ Sixers: 16 points, 6 assists, 4 rebounds, 2 turnovers
Nov. 23 @ Magic: 25 points, 5 assists, 3 rebounds, 2 steals, 0 turnovers
Nov. 24 @ Heat: 16 points, 2 assists, 1 rebound, 1 steal, 1 turnover
Nov. 26 @ Grizzlies: 15 points, 3 assists, 0 rebounds, 4 steals, 2 turnovers
Nov. 27 vs Suns: 16 points, 7 assists, 3 rebounds, 4 steals, 2 turnovers
Nov. 30 @ Hawks: 21 points, 7 assists, 1 rebound, 4 turnovers
Dec. 1 vs Blazers: 12 points, 7 assists, 5 rebounds, 1 steal, 2 turnovers

Waiters' Averages Without Irving
7 games
35.9 minutes
17.3 points (34.0% FG, 28.3% 3PT, 88% FT)
5.3 assists
2.4 rebounds
1.4 steals
2.0 turnovers


Of course, this is only a seven game sample, but that was a difficult stretch of games, five of which were on the road. Waiters was asked to be the primary playmaker on a team whose best player was out and he put up 17.3 points, 5.3 assists and just 2 turnovers a night. That isn't bad for a 20-year-old rookie in a tough spot.

Look, I'm not making any definitive statements about either Waiters or Beal or anyone else. Actually, my point is that you can't at this stage... Especially when you start talking about switching around the variables.

Those numbers are impressive other than the %'s
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:28 AM   #26
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Default Re: Redrafting the 2012 NBA Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonislegend
It's much easier playing next to one of the best PG in the league then playing next to Shelvin Mack.
Kyrie Irving is NOT a great playmaking point guard at this stage of his career, though. He is a great scoring point guard. His playmaking is coming along and he shows flashes, but let's not act like Waiters is playing with Rondo or CP3 out there.
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:28 AM   #27
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Default Re: Redrafting the 2012 NBA Draft

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Originally Posted by brandonislegend
Those numbers are impressive other than the %'s
And even the percentages aren't far off of what Beal is doing.
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:29 AM   #28
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Default Re: Redrafting the 2012 NBA Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdreason
Millsap in the 2nd round was nonsense. Guy led NCAA in rebounding for 3 years, and probably would have made it 4 if he didn't join the NBA. You don't look past that kind of talent because he isn't 6'10".
I never understand how some teams are weird with this. They won't draft a guy who can obviously play because he's not 6'10, or his vert isn't a certain amount, but they'll take wild lottery pick fliers on guys who have displayed much just because they're athletic freaks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic bird
Not to mention Isaiah Thomas....
Just the most recent example out there.
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:32 AM   #29
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Default Re: Redrafting the 2012 NBA Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Kyrie Irving is NOT a great playmaking point guard at this stage of his career, though. He is a great scoring point guard. His playmaking is coming along and he shows flashes, but let's not act like Waiters is playing with Rondo or CP3 out there.

He demands the whole defenses attention
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:37 AM   #30
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Default Re: Redrafting the 2012 NBA Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonislegend
He demands the whole defenses attention
That doesn't do a whole hell of a lot for a perimeter teammate whose current best attributes are his ability to handle the ball and use his great first step to set-up dribble drives or pull-up jumpers.

You could argue that this is why Beal would be better opposite Kyrie, but Beal still has yet to show he is a significantly better outside shooter than Waiters.... and I'm not just talking about the first 1/3 of this season. He didn't show it at Florida, either.

Plus, this argument may have merit if Waiters hadn't arguably performed better when Irving was out of the lineup. Give it some time. Let these guys figure out how to play with one another. Doesn't happen overnight. Waiters is still very raw, which is actually a good thing in this case.
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