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Old 01-17-2013, 07:32 AM   #46
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

prime Tracy McGrady
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:45 AM   #47
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

Michael Jordan, he was a great shooter (not an expert 3pt shooter) but yea..

Ray Allen aswell, was even in the dunk contest.

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Old 01-17-2013, 08:47 AM   #48
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

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prime Tracy McGrady
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Not an "amazing" shooter, T-Mac was not even a better & more consistant shooter than Lebron.
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:31 AM   #49
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

Prime Tracy McGrady and Kobe Bryant come to mind.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:18 AM   #50
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

When I think of amazing shooters, I think of guys with a great touch from deep in three point territory and who parlay into being great scorers. So those are guys like Bird, Dirk, Durant, West, Ray Ray, Peja, Dale Ellis, Rice, Nash, Price, Reggie. Thunder Dan was a great shooter, but not really a great scorer or could turn alpha dog like Price or Nash so I don't count him. Guys like Vince and T-Mac were very good 3ball shooter at best, but I don't classify them as great shooters. They are guys who are "amazing athletes" first who happen to be very good shooters along with it. A guy like MJ is a great midrange shooter, arguably the best of all time. But MJ was not a great three point shooter.

So amongst the guys who are the "great shooters from anywhere", I think Durant does indeed have the best dunking and slashing game. After that u gotta go Ray Allen. Those two far and away stand out from the pack. It's what made Ray stand out when he first got to the L. Ray back then was a guy legitimately who could be in a three point shootout with a great chance to win any year AND do very good things in a dunk contest. And Durant at 6'10 or 6'11 is doing epic monumental shit.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:29 AM   #51
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizil
When I think of amazing shooters, I think of guys with a great touch from deep in three point territory and who parlay into being great scorers. So those are guys like Bird, Dirk, Durant, West, Ray Ray, Peja, Dale Ellis, Rice, Nash, Price, Reggie. Thunder Dan was a great shooter, but not really a great scorer or could turn alpha dog like Price or Nash so I don't count him. Guys like Vince and T-Mac were very good 3ball shooter at best, but I don't classify them as great shooters. They are guys who are "amazing athletes" first who happen to be very good shooters along with it. A guy like MJ is a great midrange shooter, arguably the best of all time. But MJ was not a great three point shooter.

So amongst the guys who are the "great shooters from anywhere", I think Durant does indeed have the best dunking and slashing game. After that u gotta go Ray Allen. Those two far and away stand out from the pack. It's what made Ray stand out when he first got to the L. Ray back then was a guy legitimately who could be in a three point shootout with a great chance to win any year AND do very good things in a dunk contest. And Durant at 6'10 or 6'11 is doing epic monumental shit.
Again though, if we're matching a high level of shooting with a high level of dunking, players like Vince Carter would still be right at the top of the list because as excellent as players like Allen and Durant are at shooting, I think Carter is equally as excellent at dunking. And on the other side, I think Carter's shooting is at least as good as Ray Allen and Kevin Durant's dunking, in terms of relativity to the rest of the NBA players throughout history at those respective aspects of the game.

If we were to assign a number between 1-10 for each category, maybe it'd look like this (with no serious thought given, just throwing out numbers to help illustrate the point):

Kevin Durant: Dunking: 8, Shooting: 10
Ray Allen: Dunking: 8, Shooting: 10
Vince Carter: Dunking: 10, Shooting: 8

In that super non-scientific example, everyone's coming out to the same total. People could shift things one way or another just a tiny bit (ex: I think someone could, if they wanted to, argue that Durant and Allen are 7 dunkers or 9 dunkers. I also feel someone could make the case for Carter being a 7 shooter or a 9 shooter) but generally, that's how I see the comparisons.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:51 AM   #52
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

Quote:

When I think of amazing shooters, I think of guys with a great touch from deep in three point territory and who parlay into being great scorers. So those are guys like Bird, Dirk, Durant, West, Ray Ray, Peja, Dale Ellis, Rice, Nash, Price, Reggie. Thunder Dan was a great shooter, but not really a great scorer or could turn alpha dog like Price or Nash so I don't count him.
Quote:


A guy like MJ is a great midrange shooter, arguably the best of all time. But MJ was not a great three point shooter.



Quote:
So amongst the guys who are the "great shooters from anywhere",

A lot of 3 point shooters arent great from anywhere. Dale Ellis or MJ as midrange shooters is MJ. Same for MJ vs Ray Allen in a game. Perhaps not shooting around but really...shooting around neither is gonna miss. Jordan probably made more midrange jumpers some seasons than Peja made field goals period in some of his prime years.

Granted some of it was people playing off for fear of the drive but a lot of Reggie and Ray Allens midrange jumpers are off pump fakes from deep that got guys off their feet allowing them an open 18 footer.

For whatever reason....MJ made midrange jumpers at a rate maybe 2-3 guys you listed could.

If being a great 3 point shooter is what being a great shooter is....how is Jerry West even on the list? No doubt he made some long range shots but you watch him play....hes not doing much of it. And why would he? Its a bad shot when its still just 2 points. Hell its often a bad shot when its 3 points.

Only considering long range shooters great shooters is just punishing good shot selection.....and totally disregarding that most basketball wasnt played with a 3 point line.

Michael Jordan came into the NBA before college even had a 3 point line. Does that mean that no matter how hard he or someone from his time worked they couldnt be great shooters till they hit the NBA unless they played in the ABA with the line?

Sam Jones, Rick Barry, and Bill Bradley with their crazy shooting drills and performances(Rick Barry once scored 64....and only took 4 FTs...without a 3 point line). Can they not be amazing shooters because they didnt have the 3? Barry shot like shit from 3 when he did have it in the ABA and for a year or two in the NBA. So he cant be an amazing shooter to you?


Serious questions by the way no matter how mockingly I may have worded them.
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:33 AM   #53
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

Good discussion....I agree with Kblaze and Rake, can't even remember if they're making the same point, lol...But honestly, I may go with MJ....MJ never had a great 3 point percentage but honestly, it seems like he always made big 3 pointers under pressure. Like Kblaze said, a 3 pointer is a low percentage shot so why punish good shot selection. I could see if MJ NEVER demonstrated the ability to shoot from 3 at all but thats clearly not the case. I felt like MJ could make a shot from anywhere on the floor just like Kobe. Don't you feel the same when you watch MJ?
Other than that, I may go with Kobe or Vince. But I don't feel Vince is a GREAT shooter, like Reggie Miller or Dale Ellis. He's above average but not a better shooter than Ray Allen or even T-Mac for that matter, imo...But he's by far the greatest dunker ever so that could give him the edge...
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:47 AM   #54
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

Some of u guys are REALLY making the question more difficult. The poster said AMAZING SHOOTER! That right there eliminates VC, T-Mac, MJ, Kobe, etc. The amazing shooter part eliminates many guys who are very good three points shooters who happen to have AMAZING MIDRANGE, AMAZING POSTUP, AMAZING SLASHING, and AMAZING DUNKING!

Therefore u START with AMAZING SHOOTERS AND WORK YOUR WAY DOWN THE LIST! Jerry West was ALWAYS known an an amazing shooter. I know he didn't have a three point line, but West was ALWAYS pulling from deep. A pure shooter is a pure shooter from midrange and three ball. Another thing is pure shooters are ALWAYS epic at catch and shoot. In addition to that, many of them create great off the dribble into their three point shot. That's what makes KD devastating. He can catch and shoot with the best AND use the dribble to work his way into the three ball great. Ray Allen and point guards like Price, Curry, and Nash are the same but shorter.

A pure shooter is a pure shooter. If u call guys like Vince, MJ, or Kobe PURE SHOOTERS I gotta question you bball acumen. Once u saw AMAZING SHOOTER in the question, u should have ELIMINATED guys like Kobe, MJ, or VC IMMEDIATELY!!! Look at it like this, would u want MJ in a role roaming the three point line and being a specialist like Ray Ray is now. HELL NO! Durant is such an amazing shooter that he can fill that three point specialist role if he had to. However, he's capable of scoring in so many more ways that u don't want to limit him to just that. So if u CAN'T picture a guy being a three point specialist for a team then HE AINT AN AMAZING THREE POINT SHOOTER!!! Great scorers like Durant, Bird, or Ray just happen to be amazing shooters on that can devastate and carry a team. Three point specialists like Novak, Steve Kerr, Craig Hodges, or Korver CAN'T carry a team and are way more limited.

Last edited by bizil : 01-17-2013 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:55 AM   #55
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

None of those other guys were 6'11" nor did they play for the OKC Thunder so I don't see how they can possibly compare to Durant.
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:56 AM   #56
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

Quote:

The amazing shooter part eliminates many guys who are very good three points shooters who happen to have AMAZING MIDRANGE, AMAZING POSTUP, AMAZING SLASHING, and AMAZING DUNKING!



So....in what world is a midrange jumper not shooting? And why have I not heard of it before now?




What exactly is happening there if not shooting?

Is it a layup? Dunk?

What is he doing right there?

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Old 01-17-2013, 11:58 AM   #57
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
A lot of 3 point shooters arent great from anywhere. Dale Ellis or MJ as midrange shooters is MJ. Same for MJ vs Ray Allen in a game. Perhaps not shooting around but really...shooting around neither is gonna miss. Jordan probably made more midrange jumpers some seasons than Peja made field goals period in some of his prime years.

Granted some of it was people playing off for fear of the drive but a lot of Reggie and Ray Allens midrange jumpers are off pump fakes from deep that got guys off their feet allowing them an open 18 footer.

For whatever reason....MJ made midrange jumpers at a rate maybe 2-3 guys you listed could.

If being a great 3 point shooter is what being a great shooter is....how is Jerry West even on the list? No doubt he made some long range shots but you watch him play....hes not doing much of it. And why would he? Its a bad shot when its still just 2 points. Hell its often a bad shot when its 3 points.

Only considering long range shooters great shooters is just punishing good shot selection.....and totally disregarding that most basketball wasnt played with a 3 point line.

Michael Jordan came into the NBA before college even had a 3 point line. Does that mean that no matter how hard he or someone from his time worked they couldnt be great shooters till they hit the NBA unless they played in the ABA with the line?

Sam Jones, Rick Barry, and Bill Bradley with their crazy shooting drills and performances(Rick Barry once scored 64....and only took 4 FTs...without a 3 point line). Can they not be amazing shooters because they didnt have the 3? Barry shot like shit from 3 when he did have it in the ABA and for a year or two in the NBA. So he cant be an amazing shooter to you?


Serious questions by the way no matter how mockingly I may have worded them.

If u read my post, I said MJ has arguably the best midrange game of all time. But most of the great three point marksman who are also great scorers usually have great midrange games too. If anything they can run screens and catch and shoot. Or take a dribble or two and create. MJ could do that and had the footwork, fakes, freak athletic ability, etc. to create an epic midrange game.

But once again, would u want MJ fufilling a three point specialist role, or really focus on shooting threes. NO! A guy like Durant can do that and so much more from midrange and slashing. So u don't want to limit KD to just that. But KD can be a three point specialist because he's an AMAZING SHOOTER. And when the Thunder go small, he's the ULTIMATE STRETCH PF! MJ and Kobe I wouldn't even consider for a three point specialist role. KD has the pure stroke from deep to do that in addition to his other epic scoring talents.
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:59 AM   #58
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

"Great shooters" are guys close or at the 40/50/90 club. MJ wasnt a great shooter. So yes, Durant is probably the best dunker/shooter ever
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:02 PM   #59
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
So....in what world is a midrange jumper not shooting? And why have I not heard of it before now?

Everybody knows when u thing amazing shooter, u think three point shooting as a huge part of that. If u asked NBA experts whose the most amazing shooter in the L right now, he will say guys like Durant, Dirk, Ray, Curry etc. Or in terms of guys who perform strictly as specialist, he would say Novak or Korver. When u hear the term pure shooter or amazing shooter, most bball fans think of guys like Durant, Bird, Mullin, Reggie, etc. When u think MJ or Kobe, u think of guys who have the most complete scoring skillsets. As great as Durant is at shooting, I think Kobe, MJ, and Melo actually have more complete scoring skillsets. Even though KD has a great scoring skillset as well.

Last edited by bizil : 01-17-2013 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:02 PM   #60
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizil
Some of u guys are REALLY making the question more difficult. The poster said AMAZING SHOOTER! That right there eliminates VC, T-Mac, MJ, Kobe, etc. The amazing shooter part eliminates many guys who are very good three points shooters who happen to have AMAZING MIDRANGE, AMAZING POSTUP, AMAZING SLASHING, and AMAZING DUNKING!

Therefore u START with AMAZING SHOOTERS AND WORK YOUR WAY DOWN THE LIST! Jerry West was ALWAYS known an an amazing shooter. I know he didn't have a three point line, but West was ALWAYS pulling from deep. A pure shooter is a pure shooter from midrange and three ball. Another thing is pure shooters are ALWAYS epic at catch and shoot. In addition to that, many of them create great off the dribble into their three point shot. That's what makes KD devastating. He can catch and shoot with the best AND use the dribble to work his way into the three ball great. Ray Allen and point guards like Price, Curry, and Nash are the same but shorter.

A pure shooter is a pure shooter. If u call guys like Vince, MJ, or Kobe PURE SHOOTERS I gotta question you bball acumen. Once u saw AMAZING SHOOTER in the question, u should have ELIMINATED guys like Kobe, MJ, or VC IMMEDIATELY!!! Look at it like this, would u want MJ in a role roaming the three point line and being a specialist like Ray Ray is now. HELL NO! Durant is such an amazing shooter that he can fill that three point specialist role if he had to. However, he's capable of scoring in so many more ways that u don't want to limit him to just that. So if u CAN'T picture a guy being a three point specialist for a team then HE AINT AN AMAZING THREE POINT SHOOTER!!! Great scorers like Durant, Bird, or Ray just happen to be amazing shooters on that can devastate and carry a team. Three point specialists like Novak, Steve Kerr, Craig Hodges, or Korver CAN'T carry a team and are way more limited.
The question has too many variables. Your explanation can be turned right back around against you. He also said AMAZING dunkers, so that basically eliminates anyone not named VC or MJ. But then we wouldn't get a clear cut answer if we just did it like would we? Same thing with West, he's not an amazing dunker so basically the answer to this question would be NOBODY in history has been an AMAZING DUNKER AND SHOOTER. Ray Allen is an above average dunker, he's not AMAZING. Or actually, given my definition, Jason Richardson may be closest thing to the right answer but then again he's not an amazing shooter either...

Last edited by Dro : 01-17-2013 at 12:05 PM.
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