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Old 01-17-2013, 01:10 PM   #61
bizil
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
So....in what world is a midrange jumper not shooting? And why have I not heard of it before now?




What exactly is happening there if not shooting?

Is it a layup? Dunk?

What is he doing right there?

Taking it too far bro! Once again I SAID MJ HAS ARGUABLY THE GREATEST MIDRANGE GAME OF ALL TIME! Your video proves MY POINT THANKS BRO! LMBAO!!!

The OP said AMAZING SHOOTING! He didn't clarify, so u gotta assume shooting meaning from anywhere. When u think amazing shooting, MJ isn't the first name that comes up UNLESS it's MIDRANGE SHOOTING. SHOOTING IN GENERAL, which is what the OP is implying, is a guy like KD, Bird, Dirk, Mullin, Reggie, Peja, etc. PURE SHOOTING! If u don't know the difference, I gotta question your BBALL IQ!!
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:12 PM   #62
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

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Originally Posted by bizil
Everybody knows when u thing amazing shooter, u think three point shooting as a huge part of that. If u asked NBA experts whose the most amazing shooter in the L right now, he will say guys like Durant, Dirk, Ray, Curry etc.


Bold is key. Right now....every nba player grew up shootings threes. Most of the history of the game....that isnt the case. The questions is....has there ever....

Meaning...all time considered. Not. Right now. And all time considered....unless....time began in like 1998...we HAVE to consider people who didnt shoot threes.

And to clear something up for you....im just old enough that I remember when "amazing shooter" meant.....the ability to make open midrange shots. I remember when guys like Jordan, Kevin Johnson, and so on were called improved outside shooters....because they could make pullup jumpers.

So no....everyone doesnt think shooting is about 3s. Just many people who dont remember the league being full of great shooters who didnt take many of them.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:16 PM   #63
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

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Originally Posted by Dro
The question has too many variables. Your explanation can be turned right back around against you. He also said AMAZING dunkers, so that basically eliminates anyone not named VC or MJ. But then we wouldn't get a clear cut answer if we just did it like would we? Same thing with West, he's not an amazing dunker so basically the answer to this question would be NOBODY in history has been an AMAZING DUNKER AND SHOOTER. Ray Allen is an above average dunker, he's not AMAZING. Or actually, given my definition, Jason Richardson may be closest thing to the right answer but then again he's not an amazing shooter either...

Once again, amazing shooting eliminates many guys automatically. Which means u are selecting from the pure shooters. So u r looking for the closest match. KD is a pure shooter with enough facials and impressive dunks to take the crown. He may not be amazing or Ray Allen either. But both as u said are above average dunkers and come the closest. Now when MJ, Kobe, or VC is hot from three (which we have seen) then it's then clearly. But the post said AMAZING SHOOTERS and MJ, Kobe, and VC are AUTOMATICALLY out of the equation. Gotta give the edge to KD given his pure shooting.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:18 PM   #64
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizil
Some of u guys are REALLY making the question more difficult. The poster said AMAZING SHOOTER! That right there eliminates VC, T-Mac, MJ, Kobe, etc. The amazing shooter part eliminates many guys who are very good three points shooters who happen to have AMAZING MIDRANGE, AMAZING POSTUP, AMAZING SLASHING, and AMAZING DUNKING!

Therefore u START with AMAZING SHOOTERS AND WORK YOUR WAY DOWN THE LIST! Jerry West was ALWAYS known an an amazing shooter. I know he didn't have a three point line, but West was ALWAYS pulling from deep. A pure shooter is a pure shooter from midrange and three ball. Another thing is pure shooters are ALWAYS epic at catch and shoot. In addition to that, many of them create great off the dribble into their three point shot. That's what makes KD devastating. He can catch and shoot with the best AND use the dribble to work his way into the three ball great. Ray Allen and point guards like Price, Curry, and Nash are the same but shorter.

A pure shooter is a pure shooter. If u call guys like Vince, MJ, or Kobe PURE SHOOTERS I gotta question you bball acumen. Once u saw AMAZING SHOOTER in the question, u should have ELIMINATED guys like Kobe, MJ, or VC IMMEDIATELY!!! Look at it like this, would u want MJ in a role roaming the three point line and being a specialist like Ray Ray is now. HELL NO! Durant is such an amazing shooter that he can fill that three point specialist role if he had to. However, he's capable of scoring in so many more ways that u don't want to limit him to just that. So if u CAN'T picture a guy being a three point specialist for a team then HE AINT AN AMAZING THREE POINT SHOOTER!!! Great scorers like Durant, Bird, or Ray just happen to be amazing shooters on that can devastate and carry a team. Three point specialists like Novak, Steve Kerr, Craig Hodges, or Korver CAN'T carry a team and are way more limited.
Dro pretty much hit the nail on the head above me. Your reasoning here seems to be more, "Who's the best shooter of all-time who was capable of making a slam dunk?" In that case, we may as well have just called the thread, "Who's the greatest shooter of all-time?" because 99.999% of NBA basketball players can and have been able to dunk.

However, I thought the uniqueness of this thread was the idea of finding a player who was pretty great at shooting while also being pretty great at dunking. As such, even an amazing shooter like Larry Bird would probably not find himself in this conversation. He might have been a 10 out of 10 shooter, but he was a 1 or 2 dunker. It doesn't seem like we're just looking for the best shooter ever or best player, those topics have all been done to death.

I'm guessing this thread came about because a great shooter (Durant) has been making a dent lately with a few of his slams too, thus begging the question - who else in history has been able to shoot folks out while also being able to slam better than most others in history and again and that is why players like Vince Carter seem to have a place in this discussion. On one hand he's proven he's capable of doing things such as hitting 8 consecutive three points shots in one half of a playoff game without missing (while shooting 37% from the arc for his career). On the other hand, he's a better dunker than any NBA player that ever existed. That's a solid combination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizil
Once again, amazing shooting eliminates many guys automatically. Which means u are selecting from the pure shooters. So u r looking for the closest match. KD is a pure shooter with enough facials and impressive dunks to take the crown. He may not be amazing or Ray Allen either. But both as u said are above average dunkers and come the closest. Now when MJ, Kobe, or VC is hot from three (which we have seen) then it's then clearly. But the post said AMAZING SHOOTERS and MJ, Kobe, and VC are AUTOMATICALLY out of the equation. Gotta give the edge to KD given his pure shooting.
This all could be a matter of grammatical misinterpretation then. It seemed like the thread starter meant amazing shooter and amazing dunker and used just one "amazing" to eliminate title redundancy by saying "amazing" twice when one would work just as well.

In that case, if it's about both being an amazing shooter and amazing dunker and you're only willing to accept the absolute top of the line guys, then we'd be at an impasse altogether. Guys like Vince Carter are not as amazing at shooting as Kevin Durant. But then guys like Kevin Durant are not nearly as amazing at dunking as Kevin Durant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
"Great shooters" are guys close or at the 40/50/90 club. MJ wasnt a great shooter. So yes, Durant is probably the best dunker/shooter ever
Great dunkers are players who have shown an ability to dunk off both one foot and two feet with great power while holding the ability to complete a vast array of different dunk variations in any number of game situations. Two hand 360's in traffic, high rising windmills, incredible posters... all of that together and more. By that definition, Kevin Durant isn't a great dunker. So yes, Vince Carter is probably the best dunker/shooter ever...

I'm kidding, that's not my real argument. My point was just to illustrate how one part of the equation is not being treated equally here. If it's just a matter of finding a great shooter who dunked okay, then again, why not just call it "Who's the best shooter of all-time?" If we want to know who was able to do both at a very high level, then we have to account for who could do both at a very high level, not just talk about those who shot great and dunked alright.

Last edited by Rake2204 : 01-17-2013 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:19 PM   #65
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

Oh and Chris Mullin made 23 threes and shot under 25% on them in his highest scoring season. Chris Mullin is an all time great shooter. And it isnt because of threes. He could shoot threes....but it wasnt what made him.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:30 PM   #66
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

My man George Gervin.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:49 PM   #67
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

Your criteria is a little off.

There has never been a player with Durant's size, ball handling and shooting skill.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:07 PM   #68
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

I think the question is a bit confusing because there has NEVER been an amazing shooter and amazing dunker in one. I mean if u take the best of both worlds, it would be like combining MJ and Reggie Miller together at SG. Or Nique and Bird together. Or Kemp and Dirk at PF together. All of these guys are the cream of the crop in terms of dunking or shooting.

So let's take some of the freak athlete scoring machines historically in NBA History:

MJ
Kobe
Nique
Bron
Dr. J
David Thompson
T Mac
Vince Carter
D Wade
Baylor

These guys to me standout in that regard. Of that group who is the most amazing shooter (including three point range of course)? I think it comes down to Kobe, TMac, and Vince using this criteria. So it this is your criteria then I can live with either of those three.

Now let's take the pure shooters that stroke it from deep but are still great scorers:

Ray
KD
Bird
Dirk
Rice
Peja
Ellis
Price
Nash
Reggie
Curry
West

Of this group, BY FAR Durant and Ray are the best dunkers. It ain't even close at all. Between Durant and Ray, I will take KD. So by this criteria it's KD hands down. So all in all, I could roll with KD, Vince, Kobe, or T Mac given the criteria.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:14 PM   #69
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Oh and Chris Mullin made 23 threes and shot under 25% on them in his highest scoring season. Chris Mullin is an all time great shooter. And it isnt because of threes. He could shoot threes....but it wasnt what made him.

Never said that's what made Mullin. Just like it didn't make Bird, Durant, Dirk, etc. But Mullin was still classified as an AMAZING SHOOTER! He scored other ways and areas of course. That's why he was a great scorer and alpha dog all those years. Mully could perform the sniper pure shooter role easily and roam outside the three ball line. But Mully could do MUCH MORE! A guy like Kobe or MJ I don't want being that sniper that guy because they aren't PURE SHOOTERS when you throw in the 3ball. Inside the three ball line, MJ and Kobe are amazing at EVERY FACET of scoring. And they are damn good, at time great from 3 ball. But neither is a pure shooter that could be your designated sniper from deep if that's what the role required. And frankly, why would u want Kobe or MJ doing that anyway.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:31 PM   #70
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

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Originally Posted by Rake2204
Again though, if we're matching a high level of shooting with a high level of dunking, players like Vince Carter would still be right at the top of the list because as excellent as players like Allen and Durant are at shooting, I think Carter is equally as excellent at dunking. And on the other side, I think Carter's shooting is at least as good as Ray Allen and Kevin Durant's dunking, in terms of relativity to the rest of the NBA players throughout history at those respective aspects of the game.

If we were to assign a number between 1-10 for each category, maybe it'd look like this (with no serious thought given, just throwing out numbers to help illustrate the point):

Kevin Durant: Dunking: 8, Shooting: 10
Ray Allen: Dunking: 8, Shooting: 10
Vince Carter: Dunking: 10, Shooting: 8

In that super non-scientific example, everyone's coming out to the same total. People could shift things one way or another just a tiny bit (ex: I think someone could, if they wanted to, argue that Durant and Allen are 7 dunkers or 9 dunkers. I also feel someone could make the case for Carter being a 7 shooter or a 9 shooter) but generally, that's how I see the comparisons.

He isn't as good as Ray Allen with shooting. He doesn't have Allen's mid range nor his FT ability. But I agree with the rest of the list in the argument that you make.

Carters dunking is great and probably the best, but IMO I would think Ray Allen's shooting is greater than his dunking ability because of his all around shooting game. From mid-range, 3pt shot, to FTs. Back then Ray Allen could dunk it in your face, but wasn't stellar like Carter. I still think he is the closest.

MJ and Kobe, imo, have the best all around and you can argue for those guys as well. They are better dunkers than Ray Allen, and have a respectable shooting display, better than Carter to me.

None of them are as good as Durant tho.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:41 PM   #71
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

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Originally Posted by bizil
Never said that's what made Mullin. Just like it didn't make Bird, Durant, Dirk, etc. But Mullin was still classified as an AMAZING SHOOTER! He scored other ways and areas of course. That's why he was a great scorer and alpha dog all those years. Mully could perform the sniper pure shooter role easily and roam outside the three ball line. But Mully could do MUCH MORE! A guy like Kobe or MJ I don't want being that sniper that guy because they aren't PURE SHOOTERS when you throw in the 3ball. Inside the three ball line, MJ and Kobe are amazing at EVERY FACET of scoring. And they are damn good, at time great from 3 ball. But neither is a pure shooter that could be your designated sniper from deep if that's what the role required. And frankly, why would u want Kobe or MJ doing that anyway.

You said:

Quote:

When u hear the term pure shooter or amazing shooter, most bball fans think of guys like Durant, Bird, Mullin, Reggie, etc. When u think MJ or Kobe, u think of guys who have the most complete scoring skillsets.

Michael Jordan made more threes in 1990 than Mullin did in any season on the Warriors and did so on a better percentage than Mullin ever did in his prime. He was injured and slowed down before he had the bigtime shooting seasons. And by "Bigtime" I mean the most he ever made would be the 6th most Lebron has made. And Lebron supposedly cant even shoot.

Chris Mullin and MJ scored from similar places for the most part. Same for Bird. In different ways but pretty much 18 feet and in. But you tell me you think of amazing outside shooters and list guys who didnt even shoot from outside....and not get why id list an all time great midrange shooter as an amazing shooter?

Bird, Mullin, and pretty much everyone considered a great shooter....who was drafted before like 1988...WERE MIDRANGE SHOOTERS. They had range. MJ had range. MJ was athletic enough to not fall back on that as he aged. He just became better midrange.

Perception may be that Mullin and Bird types were gunners from deep. Reality is....Josh Smith made more threes in 2011 than Bird did in 7 years.

They were shooters yes...midrange shooters. With range. But it wasnt what they did. None of those old guys except maybe Dale Ellis.

Dirk, Mullin, Bird, West, and so on....midrange shooters with range. More range than MJ usually? Yes. But only 2 of them were nearly as dangerous shooting around the basket and midrange. Nobody else you mentioned is terribly close.

Shooting is shooting. If you are all time great in any particular area id say "amazing" is fair. Which is why a lot of guys who didnt take many threes are known as amazing shooters. Chris Mullin for one.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:46 PM   #72
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

i got one for you:

clyde drexler!!!

47/32/79 shooter and a dunking virtuoso.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:57 PM   #73
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

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Originally Posted by Micku
He isn't as good as Ray Allen with shooting. He doesn't have Allen's mid range nor his FT ability. But I agree with the rest of the list in the argument that you make.
Ha, I read the bold of my own quote and got scared. I couldn't believe I'd say something like that. But then I read the rest of the sentence and realized maybe I just made a grammatical error. The meaning of my sentence was actually, "Carter's shooting is equal to the dunking abilities of both Allen and Durant." Meaning, Carter's a pretty darn good shooter and Allen and Durant either were or are pretty darn good dunkers. Carter's not among the absolute cream of the shooting crop and Allen and Durant are not among the absolute cream of the dunking crop.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:58 PM   #74
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

t-mac....

steven francis? Penny and Hill would've been if not for injury
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:07 PM   #75
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Default Re: has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

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Originally Posted by alleykat
t-mac....

steven francis? Penny and Hill would've been if not for injury
In his short peak, I'd say McGrady would be a pretty solid choice. He loved rifling from mid-range and in his best years, his 3pt. % was pretty solid (though outside his three best years, that three point number drops dramatically).

As far as Francis, Penny, and Grant Hill go though, I never found any of them to be even borderline elite shooters. Whereas I believe an argument could be made that the likes of Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady were at least on the fringe of being elite shooters (even if their accuracy was a little bit below the mega tier), I find Francis and company to be at least one other shooting level beneath VC and cousin. Steve, Anfernee and Grant could score, but it most often did not come from having the lights shot out.
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