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Old 01-22-2013, 04:04 AM   #31
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Default Re: Guns don't kill people; violent people kill people

The conclusion that the solution to bad guys possessing and applying lethal firearms is to let everyone possess lethal weapons and use them for self defense is obviously asinine. You can't honestly believe this is a good idea.

Would you say that people that don't carry a gun and get robbed are at fault?
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:09 AM   #32
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Default Re: Guns don't kill people; violent people kill people

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamgine
So you are saying guns should be regulated like meth.

I see.

/thread
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:18 AM   #33
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Default Re: Guns don't kill people; violent people kill people

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM
An assault weapon ban is not going to limit the ability one has in defending him self. If it is similar to the previous law than existing gun owners will be grandfathered in. Also can't people just modify their weapons so they no longer qualify under the ban???

Why did the OP ignore this???
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:44 AM   #34
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Default Re: Guns don't kill people; violent people kill people

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM
An assault weapon ban is not going to limit the ability one has in defending him self. If it is similar to the previous law than existing gun owners will be grandfathered in. Also can't people just modify their weapons so they no longer qualify under the ban???

BTW, I don't support a AWB because i think there are far more effective regulations and restrictions that can be made.

My problem with it is, banning assault rifles will not stop mass gun shootings. So what happens in 2 years when there's another Sandy Hook situation? It'll be, we need to go further. Ban more things. Increase regulations. But those won't help either, because the sad truth is you can't stop dangerous, mentally disturbed people from committing mass violence. They'll find guns to use, legal or illegal, if they want them. And if there's no guns, they'll use a car. Or a knife. Will we ban all of those things? Where is the line?

At some point, we must recognize that out of all the humans, a small percentage are going to be screwed up in the head, and there's nothing we can do about it! We shouldn't take away the freedoms of law abiding citizens
in a feeble attempt to protect us from the small percentage of psychopaths. Banning guns or increasing regulations is just a feeble way to make the public feel better, it won't change anything, except the good guys become less free. That's my problem with it.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:53 AM   #35
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Default Re: Guns don't kill people; violent people kill people

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
My problem with it is, banning assault rifles will not stop mass gun shootings. So what happens in 2 years when there's another Sandy Hook situation? It'll be, we need to go further. Ban more things. Increase regulations. But those won't help either, because the sad truth is you can't stop dangerous, mentally disturbed people from committing mass violence. They'll find guns to use, legal or illegal, if they want them. And if there's no guns, they'll use a car. Or a knife. Will we ban all of those things? Where is the line?

At some point, we must recognize that out of all the humans, a small percentage are going to be screwed up in the head, and there's nothing we can do about it! We shouldn't take away the freedoms of law abiding citizens
in a feeble attempt to protect us from the small percentage of psychopaths. Banning guns or increasing regulations is just a feeble way to make the public feel better, it won't change anything, except the good guys become less free. That's my problem with it.

And how am I, an Australian and generally a good guy, any less free than you? I don't want a gun, and I more importantly don't feel the need to own one. And that is where I think the issue is. It isn't whether you need one or not, it is the fact that so many Americans feel the need to own one. There needs to be a change in Americas gun culture, as much as their needs to be a change in both gun reform and dealing with mental health problems. And I don't see how maintaining the status quo is doing anything to reduce the perceived need of owning a gun?

Guns aren't outright banned in Australia, but you need to present a case to own one (and personal defense isn't a case). But there is very little real gun culture here and I think it is in part due to the changes we made after Port Arthur.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:58 AM   #36
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Default Re: Guns don't kill people; violent people kill people

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe

At some point, we must recognize that out of all the humans, a small percentage are going to be screwed up in the head, and there's nothing we can do about it! We shouldn't take away the freedoms of law abiding citizens
in a feeble attempt to protect us from the small percentage of psychopaths
. Banning guns or increasing regulations is just a feeble way to make the public feel better, it won't change anything, except the good guys become less free. That's my problem with it.


I think that bolded sentence neatly summarises the difference between gun control and gun advocates stance. I firmly believe that people's right to life far, far outweighs the right to bear arms. Do other things kill people? Of course! But you must start somewhere in limiting it. Also I find the argument that 'Oh well, criminals can get guns whenever they like anyways', well that's assuming that the government bans guns and doesn't actually do anything to regulate or restrict firearms, which is just downright stupid. Of course if guns are banned, then the government/police will have to step up their efforts in confiscating and shutting down all gun manufacturers!
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:05 AM   #37
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Default Re: Guns don't kill people; violent people kill people

Quote:
Originally Posted by miller-time
And how am I, an Australian and generally a good guy, any less free than you? I don't want a gun, and I more importantly don't feel the need to own one. And that is where I think the issue is. It isn't whether you need one or not, it is the fact that so many Americans feel the need to own one. There needs to be a change in Americas gun culture, as much as their needs to be a change in both gun reform and dealing with mental health problems. And I don't see how maintaining the status quo is doing anything to reduce the perceived need of owning a gun?
.

Just factually you are less free in terms of your ability to own a gun. Whether or not you want one, or if people need one, is a different argument.

Does America have a gun culture problem? Let's just say we do for the sake of argument. Just me personally, I don't feel that the answer to that comes from law. The only role the state should serve in addressing gun culture is removing laws, like the drug war, which feed into it.

I think it's societies role to fix itself. If America has a gun problem, we need to look at ourselves and figure it out. I think laws introduce unnecessary complication into the issue. For instance, America's attitudes and tolerance towards gay people has changed drastically. That was largely a cultural thing. If there's truly a gun problem, I think the best solution does not come from Congress.
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:10 AM   #38
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Default Re: Guns don't kill people; violent people kill people

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Just factually you are less free in terms of your ability to own a gun.

But I feel I am more free in not having to worry about other people carrying around guns.

I am free from worrying about guns, and therefore the freedom I might gain from being able to purchase a gun is moot.
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:10 AM   #39
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Default Re: Guns don't kill people; violent people kill people

Quote:
Originally Posted by brantonli
I think that bolded sentence neatly summarises the difference between gun control and gun advocates stance. I firmly believe that people's right to life far, far outweighs the right to bear arms. Do other things kill people? Of course! But you must start somewhere in limiting it. Also I find the argument that 'Oh well, criminals can get guns whenever they like anyways', well that's assuming that the government bans guns and doesn't actually do anything to regulate or restrict firearms, which is just downright stupid. Of course if guns are banned, then the government/police will have to step up their efforts in confiscating and shutting down all gun manufacturers!

I think this bolded sentence represents what I see as the progressive blind spot on this topic. The notion that there's a practical way to limit rogue psychopaths in society, acting alone with a vicious intent to kill. To me, amping up gun regulations, even banning guns, will have very little effect on this. And in trade, you lose a massive amount of liberties and open the pandoras box of Washington DC's reach.
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:42 AM   #40
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Default Re: Guns don't kill people; violent people kill people

Quote:
Originally Posted by miller-time
But I feel I am more free in not having to worry about other people carrying around guns.

I am free from worrying about guns, and therefore the freedom I might gain from being able to purchase a gun is moot.

You aren't more free, you are just happier with being less free. You are happier in a society with heavier restrictions on the freedom to own a gun. But that does not mean you are more free than an American. It just makes you happier with less freedoms.

And I also don't think there's anything wrong with that, at all. To an extent, we all want certain "freedoms" restricted. Personally, the only freedoms I feel should be restricted are those that impose on the freedom of others. And no, I don't think you have a right to "not worry about guns." Because if that's your right, than it infringes on the rights of others to own guns. And how can something be a right, if it simultaneously denies the rights of others? Quite the paradox.

I don't think you're wrong for feeling like you do, I just think these issues should be settled on a smaller scale. From city to city, town to town, instead of from country to country. Because of how complex the issue is, I think it's definitely more of a local government issue, as I feel most things should be.
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:03 AM   #41
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Default Re: Guns don't kill people; violent people kill people

Doesn't hurt to have a gun or few to get your killing done.
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:55 AM   #42
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Default Re: Guns don't kill people; violent people kill people

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
And I also don't think there's anything wrong with that, at all. To an extent, we all want certain "freedoms" restricted. Personally, the only freedoms I feel should be restricted are those that impose on the freedom of others. And no, I don't think you have a right to "not worry about guns." Because if that's your right, than it infringes on the rights of others to own guns. And how can something be a right, if it simultaneously denies the rights of others? Quite the paradox.

But don't forget, while they may not be able to get their hands on a gun, they still GAIN the same right I have of not having to worry about other people having easy access to guns (which may be partially why they want a gun in the first place). It isn't a clear cut win-lose situation. I don't think that gun ownership is beneficial to society - even though it may be beneficial to the individual.
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:43 AM   #43
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Default Re: Guns don't kill people; violent people kill people

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
My problem with it is, banning assault rifles will not stop mass gun shootings. So what happens in 2 years when there's another Sandy Hook situation? It'll be, we need to go further. Ban more things. Increase regulations. But those won't help either, because the sad truth is you can't stop dangerous, mentally disturbed people from committing mass violence. They'll find guns to use, legal or illegal, if they want them. And if there's no guns, they'll use a car. Or a knife. Will we ban all of those things? Where is the line?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but not all assault rifles would fall under the ban. As for stopping mass shootings, it would be impossible to tell if the ban actually did stop a mass shooting. If some whack job was not able to attain an assault weapon and as a result the casualties were lower due to using less effective weapons, then that would be an example of the ban stopping a mass shooting.
However, I'm not clear on how effective an AWB would be in stopping said whack jobs, which is why I feel there are other targeted regulations and restrictions that would be more effective in achieving the scenario I mentioned above.

Quote:
At some point, we must recognize that out of all the humans, a small percentage are going to be screwed up in the head, and there's nothing we can do about it! We shouldn't take away the freedoms of law abiding citizens
in a feeble attempt to protect us from the small percentage of psychopaths. Banning guns or increasing regulations is just a feeble way to make the public feel better, it won't change anything, except the good guys become less free. That's my problem with it.

The problem is not everyone sees restrictions as taking freedoms away. Some restrictions or regulations are necessary to protect our collective freedoms. I have yet to see how anyone will become less free if the proposed AWB goes through, how does this ban impact on your ability to defend yourself???

Finally can you clear up some of the usage of terms like psychopaths and screwed up in the head because I don't think they equate to each other. I always thought psychopaths tended to be rational and were not crazy.
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:57 AM   #44
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Default Re: Guns don't kill people; violent people kill people

there was a non violent guy that discharged his shotgun and almost killed 3 people
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:22 AM   #45
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Default Re: Guns don't kill people; violent people kill people

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
I think this bolded sentence represents what I see as the progressive blind spot on this topic. The notion that there's a practical way to limit rogue psychopaths in society, acting alone with a vicious intent to kill. To me, amping up gun regulations, even banning guns, will have very little effect on this. And in trade, you lose a massive amount of liberties and open the pandoras box of Washington DC's reach.


A massive amount of liberties? Unless you are a gun shop owner or hunt deer for a living, I doubt you'll be losing a 'massive amout of liberties'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
They'll find guns to use, legal or illegal, if they want them. And if there's no guns, they'll use a car. Or a knife. Will we ban all of those things? Where is the line?



So essentially you are saying there is no way to enforce a ban on guns? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's the 'practical' side of your argument?
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