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Old 01-22-2013, 10:17 PM   #31
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Default Re: New school shooting in Houston..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacers4ever
also tell me more about how criminals follow laws.

Tell me how making guns tougher to find, tougher to buy, and lessening production magically makes something more available.
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:34 PM   #32
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Default Re: New school shooting in Houston..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balla_Status
But makes it harder for ALL law abiding citizens to buy a gun.

So what? Plenty of things are hard to get. It is a pain in the ass to get a passport or a drivers license. But there is a reason for it, just like there is a reason guns should be hard for people to get. Because determining people who are capable of owning and handling a gun should be a measured process.

Being a law abiding citizen is only one aspect of living in a society, it doesn't mean you are exempt from having to take part in competency and security checks. Everyone is a law abiding citizen until they commit a crime. It isn't a badge of honor, it is a changeable status.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:14 AM   #33
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Default Re: New school shooting in Houston..

It's sad that some use these things for political points. We're violent, and we have been before any of us have been alive, we can't change that. I believe that in certain part of the countries, gun laws are too liberal, and in other parts, they're too strict, but there's no trend to suggest the stricter laws, or the more liberal laws cut down on violence. There's been violence for many, many years, but it's magnifiied since Obama(who is more far left than any president in my life time has been far right or far left) uses kids to prop up his own political agenda, people lose sight of logic. He's the media's golden boy. Doesn't matter how incompetent he's been, doesn't matter that he never had the experience to be president in the first place, the media eats up his extreme left wing agenda.

The problems go far beyond guns. It's what goes on in these sick freak's minds. We do have gun control in this country. And no, to the braindead assholes out there who think gang members get their guns legally, they don't. They do not want a record of their purchase of the gun, nor do most of them qualify for handguns in the first place.
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:49 AM   #34
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Default Re: New school shooting in Houston..

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
It's sad that some use these things for political points. We're violent, and we have been before any of us have been alive, we can't change that.

Changing a culture of violence might be difficult but it is not impossible.

Quote:
I believe that in certain part of the countries, gun laws are too liberal, and in other parts, they're too strict, but there's no trend to suggest the stricter laws, or the more liberal laws cut down on violence.


This is a good point, there are many contributing factors to violence and only looking at specific laws is a disservice. The solution is going to take a multi prong attack and every jurisdiction/sector of society has to look at its part of the problem.

Quote:
There's been violence for many, many years, but it's magnifiied since Obama(who is more far left than any president in my life time has been far right or far left) uses kids to prop up his own political agenda, people lose sight of logic. He's the media's golden boy.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the crime statistics showing that there is less violence today???

What do you mean it has magnified under Obama???

In terms of media attention maybe but I don't see how that has anything to do with Obama


Quote:
Doesn't matter how incompetent he's been, doesn't matter that he never had the experience to be president in the first place, the media eats up his extreme left wing agenda.

How has Obama been incompetent???

I wouldn't rate him as a good president, it still too early to have an accurate ratting. However, with the mess he has inherited I think he has done a fair job. The situation could have been much worse in the short-term so instead they kick the problem down the road because they didn't have a solution at the time. While that is a lack of leadership it is the modern reality of today politics. I see it as politicians would rather leave the problem for someone else to solve then risking their own careers trying to solve a problem. However, overall if they did nothing the reality in today's America would have been much different.

As far as him having an extreme left wing agenda, Who does he have an extreme left agenda in comparison too???

The Democrats are far from a left-wing party in comparison to other country left-wing parties. In fact, the Democrat party would be farther to the right of most center right-wing parties across the globe. Also, in terms of America's left, Obama is not exactly their favourite son because they actually would like to see him go farther on some issues.

Quote:
The problems go far beyond guns. It's what goes on in these sick freak's minds. We do have gun control in this country. And no, to the braindead assholes out there who think gang members get their guns legally, they don't. They do not want a record of their purchase of the gun, nor do most of them qualify for handguns in the first place.

Well maybe we should be spending more on mental health initiatives. However, there is a group of people who want to slash and burn at all social spending due to large deficits and debt issues. While deficits and debt issues are important so is crumbling infrastructure and health services. Maybe America needs to stop incurring the global costs of policing the world and refocus on rebuilding America.

Finally, I don't think people are suggesting that gang members get their guns legally but that the legal guns can flow into the illegal arms trade.
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Old 01-23-2013, 02:31 AM   #35
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Default Re: New school shooting in Houston..

gang shootings happen on a daily basis in America. Are we going to post a new thread on a daily basis cuz "gun control" is such a hot topic these days?
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:14 AM   #36
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Default Re: New school shooting in Houston..

Quote:
Originally Posted by n00bie
gang shootings happen on a daily basis in America. Are we going to post a new thread on a daily basis cuz "gun control" is such a hot topic these days?

In a normal society it would be. But from what I can tell on here is that America is a society of individuals. They aren't interested in the welfare of other people if it means it encroaches on even the smallest part of their "freedoms."

And yes this is a generalization of a subset of the American population (I kind of have to add that disclaimer to everything now).
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:35 AM   #37
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Default Re: New school shooting in Houston..

I don't even know what to say anymore. I don't give a shit about media coverage. I cannot understand how people, law abiding gun owners, the most progressive of leftists, whatever your stance, can't come to an agreement that too many ****ing people are dying because of guns. It's not a political battle, people are dying every day, stop drawing lines on when that's OK and not because of whatever party you support. PEOPLE, not newscasts, not numbers on a spreadsheet, people. Why is anyone OK with this? Why is anyone cool with the status quo?

I have no clue how to fix it. But as soon as anyone tries, as soon as anyone even mentions a thought of how, it's shouted down. What's wrong with us? Sincerely, why do we keep killing eachother and why are so many people OK with it?

Last edited by InspiredLebowski : 01-23-2013 at 05:38 AM.
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:23 AM   #38
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Default Re: New school shooting in Houston..

Quote:
Originally Posted by InspiredLebowski
I don't even know what to say anymore. I don't give a shit about media coverage. I cannot understand how people, law abiding gun owners, the most progressive of leftists, whatever your stance, can't come to an agreement that too many ****ing people are dying because of guns. It's not a political battle, people are dying every day, stop drawing lines on when that's OK and not because of whatever party you support. PEOPLE, not newscasts, not numbers on a spreadsheet, people. Why is anyone OK with this? Why is anyone cool with the status quo?

I have no clue how to fix it. But as soon as anyone tries, as soon as anyone even mentions a thought of how, it's shouted down. What's wrong with us? Sincerely, why do we keep killing eachother and why are so many people OK with it?

I don't think we are OK with it, but I personally think America's well-being has been neglected in-favor of military might across the globe. Maybe I'm wrong to come to that conclusion, from my perspective it seems like infrastructure(soft and hard) is crumbling as well as social well-being measures. I'm definitively not an expert on such matters, but I surely would like to see are far more detail and academic discussion on mental health, the availability of guns, overall gun culture, and what role the pharmaceuticals play into this complex issue. I think it is wrong to get caught up in the gun issue, but it is easy to do at times while we ignore some of the other troubling aspects that create this dangerous mix.
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Old 01-23-2013, 07:06 AM   #39
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Default Re: New school shooting in Houston..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balla_Status
But makes it harder for ALL law abiding citizens to buy a gun.

It SHOULD be harder to buy a gun.

That's the point.

If you're law abiding and you have to wait an extra day or two? Who cares?
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:20 AM   #40
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Default Re: New school shooting in Houston..

question: do any of the 2nd amendment advocates here actually oppose any of the following proposals?


a) requisite background checks/competence tests

b) closing the gun show loophole

c) teeth for appropriate departments (atf?) to crack down on illegal dealers

d) national registry (private of course)


so it should be clear why manufacturers and especially retailers would oppose most of those measures. the expense of compliance would eat into their margins. well so be it, but from what i've heard and read, economics hasn't really entered into the debate so we can ignore that

i also left out a few pills that might be too tough to swallow, or that maybe just don't make sense; outright bans on assault rifles (classification is tricky, with modifiers and all that), annual psych tests or something (overreach, maybe too arbitrary). the registry might belong in this category as well.


so, as law abiding citizens... anybody fundamentally disagree with the principle that informs the above list? seems to me by the most cited argument i see, you're essentially inclined to support them. i'm talking about the whole "good guy with a gun > bad guy with a gun" argument, and its cousin, to deter potential tyranny; both of those seem to share the same principle. it's not like you want suicidal nutjobs or whatever on your side in a showdown against the american military lol

so the question is then, how do you get more guns into the hands of good guys and out of the hands of bad guys? and the answer is plainly through a screening process of some sort. any any serious shooter or hunter will clearly take the time and spend the money on whatever licensing gets agreed upon. maybe you launch a gun buyback program that offers license vouchers at a higher value than straight dough? something along those lines anyway, dozens of ideas floating around im sure

and i have serious reservations about even entering into that sort of black and white line of thought. its horrifically oversimplified to the point of absurdity. the answer you get to "whats with these crazy people?" is one of two things; "its gun culture" says one side, "they are just crazy" says the other. i dunno, the whole thing just strikes me as a systemic issue far too complicated to attempt to address through any moderate public policy reform


but i'm rambling. the point i want to make is this; having sorta casually followed this whole raging debate for the past few months, everybody just seems talking past one another. the media isn't helping. i just watched a few of those piers morgan debates and they're barely coherent.

i know regular people aren't as bad as talking heads, so i ask again about the policy proposals listed above.

are they fair? are they constitutionally legal? do you think they make sense in light of the recent tragedies?
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:30 AM   #41
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Default Re: New school shooting in Houston..

^Haven't seen you in a minute.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:50 AM   #42
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Default Re: New school shooting in Houston..

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaininThrees
It SHOULD be harder to buy a gun.

That's the point.

If you're law abiding and you have to wait an extra day or two? Who cares?

This is essentially the point I was making. I think the issue is that they don't want to give any ground. And I guess I can understand that. One step towards regulation, is one step closer to more regulation, which is one step closer to outright banning. It may be flawed logic, but it does make sense when you consider their mind set. I mean they seriously think the same government that is feeding off of their consumerism and fear is going to go all Orwellian on them. Guns or no guns, you guys (and increasingly the west in general) are getting raped already!
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:30 AM   #43
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Default Re: New school shooting in Houston..

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
question: do any of the 2nd amendment advocates here actually oppose any of the following proposals?


a) requisite background checks/competence tests

b) closing the gun show loophole

c) teeth for appropriate departments (atf?) to crack down on illegal dealers

d) national registry (private of course)


so it should be clear why manufacturers and especially retailers would oppose most of those measures. the expense of compliance would eat into their margins. well so be it, but from what i've heard and read, economics hasn't really entered into the debate so we can ignore that

i also left out a few pills that might be too tough to swallow, or that maybe just don't make sense; outright bans on assault rifles (classification is tricky, with modifiers and all that), annual psych tests or something (overreach, maybe too arbitrary). the registry might belong in this category as well.


so, as law abiding citizens... anybody fundamentally disagree with the principle that informs the above list? seems to me by the most cited argument i see, you're essentially inclined to support them. i'm talking about the whole "good guy with a gun > bad guy with a gun" argument, and its cousin, to deter potential tyranny; both of those seem to share the same principle. it's not like you want suicidal nutjobs or whatever on your side in a showdown against the american military lol

so the question is then, how do you get more guns into the hands of good guys and out of the hands of bad guys? and the answer is plainly through a screening process of some sort. any any serious shooter or hunter will clearly take the time and spend the money on whatever licensing gets agreed upon. maybe you launch a gun buyback program that offers license vouchers at a higher value than straight dough? something along those lines anyway, dozens of ideas floating around im sure

and i have serious reservations about even entering into that sort of black and white line of thought. its horrifically oversimplified to the point of absurdity. the answer you get to "whats with these crazy people?" is one of two things; "its gun culture" says one side, "they are just crazy" says the other. i dunno, the whole thing just strikes me as a systemic issue far too complicated to attempt to address through any moderate public policy reform


but i'm rambling. the point i want to make is this; having sorta casually followed this whole raging debate for the past few months, everybody just seems talking past one another. the media isn't helping. i just watched a few of those piers morgan debates and they're barely coherent.

i know regular people aren't as bad as talking heads, so i ask again about the policy proposals listed above.

are they fair? are they constitutionally legal? do you think they make sense in light of the recent tragedies?

Background checks are already requisite unless the firearm is purchased privately (gunshow loophole). I would support background checks for private purchases as long as they are free and easy to obtain.

I do not support a national registry. I see no reason for the government to have a list of law abiding gun owners. How would a registry have prevented Sandy Hook or Aurora? Criminals do not register guns, and a list of law abiding gun owners is nothing but a list the government can use to confiscate weapons.

I vehemently oppose an assault weapons ban. There is nothing an "assault weapon" does any differently than a semi-automatic ranch rifle.

These 2 pictures are the same gun, a Ruger Mini14:





They are identical in function. An assault weapons ban is a ban on aesthetics and cosmetics, not functionality.

My take on the situation is that if you really want to crack down on gun violence in this county, you need to tackle the root of the issue which is gang violence and the War on Drugs that fuels it. These school shootings get the most press, but the fact of the matter is your child is much more likely to die from a severe case of diarrhea than a school shooter.

According to the FBI, only 2.4% of gun murders are committed with rifles, including AR style rifles. We are focusing all of our efforts on a statistically negligible portion of gun crime while the largest contributor, illegal handguns in the hands of gang members, has received not a word of consideration.

I do not oppose effective and fair gun control. I do oppose gun control that is ineffective and based entirely on fear mongering and the public's ignorance of guns.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:34 AM   #44
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Default Re: New school shooting in Houston..

Quote:
Originally Posted by miller-time
This is essentially the point I was making. I think the issue is that they don't want to give any ground. And I guess I can understand that. One step towards regulation, is one step closer to more regulation, which is one step closer to outright banning. It may be flawed logic, but it does make sense when you consider their mind set. I mean they seriously think the same government that is feeding off of their consumerism and fear is going to go all Orwellian on them. Guns or no guns, you guys (and increasingly the west in general) are getting raped already!

Dude, the violent crime rate in Australia is higher than the US. Keep acting smug about gun crime while the assault rate, rape rate, burglary rate etc. in your country continues to rank in the top 4 or 5 among developed nations. You have your own issues to deal with, quit acting like shit is so great in Aussie land.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:37 AM   #45
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Default Re: New school shooting in Houston..

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234

The problems go far beyond guns. It's what goes on in these sick freak's minds. We do have gun control in this country. And no, to the braindead assholes out there who think gang members get their guns legally, they don't. They do not want a record of their purchase of the gun, nor do most of them qualify for handguns in the first place.

Ok but those gang bangers aren't the ones shooting up schools. These loser ass kids aren't buying guns off the streets. You think a guy like Adam Lanza knows where to go to get a gun off the street? Those dudes hardly never their house.

We shouldn't ban guns but geez at least make them more difficult to get. Don't see how a more stringent process to buy guns will affect anyone. That would, at the least, deter some of the crazies that try to buy a gun legally.
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